Phillip Lovegrove: [00:00:00] Because everyone has busy schedules, they’ve got their own careers, and families, and stuff. So, you’re trying to work this in amongst all the other commitments.
Peter Margaritis: [00:00:16] Welcome to Change Your Mindset Podcast, formerly known as Improv is No Joke, where it’s all about believing that strong communication skills are the best way in delivering your technical accounting knowledge and growing your business. An effective way of building strong communication skills is by embracing the principles of applied improvisation.
Peter Margaritis: [00:00:34] Your host is Peter Margaritis, CPA, a.k.a. The Accidental Accountant. And he will interview financial professionals and business leaders to find their secret in building stronger relationships with their clients, customers, associates, and peers, all the while growing their businesses. So, let’s start the show.
Peter Margaritis: [00:01:02] Welcome to Episode 29. And my guest today is Phil Lovegrove, who’s a partner in the personal financial planning firm of Vorisek Financial Corporation. Phil joined the firm in 2016 as a partner and financial advisor, bringing with him 14 years of financial service experience; seven of them, serving in the capacity of a certified financial planner. Throughout his career, Phil has particularly enjoyed the client relationships he’s developed along the way. His belief and needs-based approach that provides hands-on personal service for the long-term relationship is the best for both parties. And I thoroughly agree. To achieve his needs-based approach, Phil is required to become an effective and adaptable communicator to his clients, prospects, and associates.
Peter Margaritis: [00:01:52] Now, many of the financial planners that I’ve interacted with in the past could or would not adapt their conversation to meet the needs of their clients, but only serve their needs and, at times, come across condescending. Phil is just the opposite.
Peter Margaritis: [00:02:10] Also, I’ve been a client of his for just over a year. During this time, I’ve had more conversations about my financial position and pending
retirement than ever before. Albeit, I’m a lot closer to retirement than I was five years ago, but having financial conversations more frequently than quarterly, semi-annually, or even annually is all about the needs-based approach and the hands-on personal service. And he is doing a great job, and it’s something we all can learn from.
Peter Margaritis: [00:02:42] Before we get to the interview, Changed Your Mindset is now being distributed by C-Suite Radio. You can find Change Your Mindset, along with many other outstanding business podcasts, on C-Suite Radio by going to www.c-suiteradio.com.
Announcer: [00:03:00] This podcast is part of the C-Suite Radio Network. Turning the volume up on business.
Peter Margaritis: [00:03:05] And, now, a word from our sponsor.
Sponsor: [00:03:10] This episode is sponsored by Peter A Margaritis LLC, a.k.a. The Accidental Accountant. Are you looking for a high-content and engaging speaker for your next conference? Do you want to deliver a story to stakeholders that will transform data dumping to engaging business conversations? Do you want to feel that the value a speaker provides your audience far exceeds the dollar value on their invoice? Then, then book Peter for your next conference, management retreat, or workshop. Contact Peter and peter@petermargaritis.com and visit his website at www.petermargaritis.com. By the way, one of his Fortune 50 clients actually made the comment about the value he brings to your audience.
Peter Margaritis: [00:03:57] Now, let’s get to the interview with Phil Lovegrove.
Peter Margaritis: [00:04:06] Hey, welcome back, everybody. Today, my special guest is Mr. Philip Lovegrove. And man, that name sounds like a rock star name for back in the ’70s, doesn’t it? And Phil is a partner and Vorisek Financial Corporation. He is my financial planner, just full transparency. And Phil, as he’s going to explain, we met through a mutual friend. But as we were working prior to recording this, Phil is really a professional networker. And we’re have a lot of conversations around his ability to
network and generate business. But first, Phil, thank you so very much for being a guest on my podcast.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:04:50] No problem, Pete. Thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to it.
Peter Margaritis: [00:04:53] And so, the audience knows just a little bit more about you. Unfortunately, you’re not that rock star, but you have that rock star name.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:05:01] Yes, I’m a financial advisor. So far from it.
Peter Margaritis: [00:05:05] So, you’re financial advisor. You’re a partner in this firm. Give us a little background on how you got to be a partner in this firm. A little bit of that journey.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:05:14] Yeah, sure. So, I’ve been in the financial services industry for about 13 years now, but I got started in the banks, a couple regional banks here out of Columbus, Ohio – Fifth Third Bank, and then Huntington Bank. And I was at Huntington. We had a lot of support staff helping us. And one of those folks got a job over at Vorisek, and she got more familiar with the firm and division for the firm. She thought of me, and reached out, and said I should meet with Tom, who is the founder of our firm. And she thought there might be some synergies and some likemindedness that would potentially lead to a partnership opportunity.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:05:57] And so, it took about a year for us to get to know each other better, and come to understand where Vorisek was heading, and where I wanted to have my career, and finally decided it’s a good fit. And that was not quite three years ago that I leave the bank and joined Vorisek Financial as the third partner, and what will eventually be a transition strategy to help Tom, our founder, transition out of the business as well.
Peter Margaritis: [00:06:19] That’s cool, that sort of succession plan, and that you’re part of that succession plan. But when you came over to Vorisek, did you come over with was book of business or did you have to start from scratch at that point?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:06:36] Yeah, great question. Some of both. Fortunately, as fate would have it, I was able to transition some of the clients that I was helping with at Huntington over. So, a lot of families I’ve gotten to know with my years over there. They followed me and became a client here at Vorisek. And then, I spent a good amount of time the first six to nine months really working through that process. And then, since then, fortunately, they’ve sent me a lot of referrals for my current client base. But then, yeah, it’s been doing a lot of networking and meeting people both through the community and through different events here in Columbus.
Peter Margaritis: [00:07:16] And do you even listen to my podcast? I tend to focus my conversation to the financial services and, really, a little bit kind of niched into accountants and the CPAs. And thinking about that, if you’re in a firm, an accounting firm, and your staff, and just join a firm, you really need to start thinking about networking now, if you have the aspirations of becoming a partner, because it just doesn’t happen overnight. And I’m sure you can attest to that because most everybody can attest that this takes time. There’s a reason why there’s work in networking.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:07:50] Yeah. No, that’s well sad. And coincidentally, just in the last couple of weeks, I was meeting with someone I’ve gotten to know through networking the last few years. And she was in the telecommunications field prior, and recently just took a job as a business development for a large firm here in Columbus, a large CPA firm. And she was just making that same suggestion that they have a lot of folks in that manager role with some partner aspirations, and that it might be a good idea for me to connect with some of them, maybe through like a pizza event or something like that after the tax deadline here to kind of start building some relationships. And so, yeah, I think she was thinking along the lines of exactly what you just described.
Peter Margaritis: [00:08:36] Yes. I think that a lot of people look at networking from a negative perspective. I’ve always said that for those of you who do not like to network, I blame your mother because your mother always told you never talk to strangers. But at a business event, there is no such thing as a stranger. Everybody is a potential opportunity, or they might know somebody who can help you get to where you want to solve that problem that you’re working on currently.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:09:04] Correct, yeah. And it’s been a big change for me. I’ve grown up in the banks. Most of our networking, the time was best spent internally, meeting with other partners or other resources within the bank as a financial advisor, maybe a business banker, or mortgage originator, or a personal banker, or private banker, executive in the bank who maybe has their own network. So, yeah. So, it’s definitely been a change now as a partner in a smaller advisory firm, and networking has definitely changed over for me here the last four or five years.
Peter Margaritis: [00:09:39] So, what associations or organizations are you involved in in Central Ohio that opened up that networking opportunity to meet folks who could use the services and probably need your services?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:09:53] Sure, yeah. Columbus is growing quickly, and just driving around or driving inside the outer belt, or even outside the outer belt, there’s development everywhere. So, there’s lots of different ways to network. And I think part of networking, at least for me, has been kind of sifting through those and checking different ones out to evaluate what’s the best fit for how I like to connect with people.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:10:16] And so, as it stands now, I focus a lot of my networking events here in the Worthington area. It’s where our firm is. That’s where my family lives. So, in case of a network networking involves evening or early morning commitments. And I’m usually just a few minutes from home to make those work and maybe still get back to the kids’ activities.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:10:39] Specifically, within Worthington, I’ll be taking over as the Board Chair of a group called Leadership Worthington. And that has really allowed me
to connect with a lot of different people in the Worthington area, not just business professionals, which there’s certainly a lot of that, but folks in the different service organizations, people on government, people in the schools. So, it’s been a great way just to meet people, and get our name out, and get a better feel for what’s going on in the Worthington Community.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:11:10] And then, as a byproduct of that, I met people who through the Worthington Chamber, and got involved here locally at the Worthington Chamber, and joined the board this year. So, yeah, there’s been a couple of organizations, those two in particular in Worthington that I’ve a lot of time with.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:11:29] And then, the other area of interest to me is leadership. And so, there’s a group here in Columbus called Relay Leadership, and I’ve met lot of new people, similarly-minded, similarly-focused on leadership, in particular, servant leadership. And so, that’s been a great avenue for just making connections, not necessarily with the intent of trying to turn them into clients but just meeting other good people and seeing how we can support each other in different areas. And, sometimes, that leads the business, but most the time, it doesn’t.
Peter Margaritis: [00:12:01] You said the key word there, it’s relationship because networking is not about making a transaction. Networking is starting a relationship, building upon a relationship. And you never know, at some point in time, five years from now, something could happen, or the story that I’m going to tell us how we got connected is a gentleman by the name of Reuben Miner was in Philadelphia back in 2000 – and I believe it was ’14 at the National Speakers Association Annual Convention. He was sitting behind me in a breakout session, and he mentioned he was from Columbus.
Peter Margaritis: [00:12:36] So, we started talking and stuff. Then, after that, we would meet maybe once or twice a year for lunch or whatever. Then, we ran into each other. We were having lunch. And I made a comment like, “I’m looking for a financial planner. Do you know anybody?” And that’s when he gave me your name. And that’s how we got here. And this relationship that we weaved extends out to the people that we meet and
can give us that referral. And it’s worked out. I’ve enjoyed the relationship. I’ve had a better relationship with you as my financial player than the three or four others that I had fired in the past.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:13:13] Yeah, yeah. No, it’s been great to get to know you. And the backstory for Reuben is we’ve been at the same church together. We go to a large church on the northeast side of Columbus but actually was big enough that we had never connected. And I was out with a friend I used to work with at the bank is an attorney now, and we were talking about our church, and he asked if I knew Reuben, and said we never crossed paths. So, he connected us. And Reuben and I got coffee, and got to know each other better, and has continued to maintain that relationship. He does leadership and stuff here in Columbus and asked me to come speak at that. So, there’s been some natural overlay there, but yeah.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:13:53] So, I never once really anticipated or asked him for any type of referral for our business, but he thought of me when you guys were talking. And so, yeah, I feel very fortunate that I got a chance to meet you through Reuben, but, yeah, that would have never happened had I not made the initial networking connection, and then followed up with who he suggested I connected with, and then stayed in touch with Reuben, who then had me on his mind when you guys were having lunch.
Peter Margaritis: [00:14:28] Yeah. I always think the viewpoint of networking as the godfather approach. How could I help because some day, I might come and ask you for a favor. So, if I can do something for you and help you, then when it comes time that I need something done, then you’re more willing to, more or less, help as it reciprocated versus I’ve met people over the years who merely want me to help them do something.
Peter Margaritis: [00:14:57] And while we haven’t quite got that trust relationship built yet, and I feel like if I can help you with something, and I do that, I’ve increased that level of trust. I’ve initiated it. So, you’re more likely to be able to help me versus coming after me just immediately. That, to me, feels more like a salesperson.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:15:17] Yeah. Yeah, you’re completely right. That’s certainly been one of the experiences these few years networking outside the bank is there are certain events that are geared towards that networking crowd, and some are valuable, some are not. But we’ve all met those people that are the handshake, the business card, the sales pitch within 10 seconds of meeting them. And, for me, no bigger turnoff. So, yeah, I agree.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:15:42] My philosophy is always just try to make connections, see if there’s some value I can provide. And then, with the understanding that just meeting somebody once is probably not going to be enough to build a relationship. And so, maybe, I can connect them into one of the leadership groups or the Chamber. And then, we’ll see each other those type of events. And then, eventually, a relationship may or may not develop, and that may or may not lead to referrals down the line.
Peter Margaritis: [00:16:11] So, being a partner in a financial services organization, what’s your biggest challenge that you have in growing your business?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:16:20] Yeah, that’s a great question. Right now, currently, our biggest challenge has been staffing. We’re in a growth phase. We started as a one-advisor firm with some support folks. And, now, we’re at a four-advisor firm. And so, I think, like probably some of the CPA firms that are maybe listening just going through some of the growing pains of trying to attract the right talent, the right people, the right fit for us culturally, and then, to retain them, and then continue to work through the ever-growing workload of bringing on
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:16:54] We think different parts of our firm. We’re up 70% last year. And other ones, 20%-30%. And so, that’s just a lot more work for our folks that help us on the support side or on the planning side. So, we’re just trying to continue to keep the pipeline full of folks that can help us from an employee standpoint, and then always kind of keep an eye out for other talented folks that may be able to help us in the future.
Peter Margaritis: [00:17:24] Yeah, I actually got an email in a database about these two positions that you’re looking for, the client service manager and associate planner. And I thought, my first response was, “That’s great. The firm is growing.” And in this marketplace, that has to be a challenge in finding the right people. Are you also reverting to your network to say, “Who do you know that you think that would fit well with an organization?”
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:17:51] Yeah, yeah, great question. That was sort of the intent of the e-mail, whether it’s clients or are, actually, two of our longstanding employees. We have a gentleman who has been at the firm 12 years, and a gentleman who has been at the firm seven years. And know for sure, but Eric, the guy who has been with us for 12 years, was a referral from a client. He helped the client some of his personal banking staff, and the client had called our firm and said, “You guys need to take a look at this guy. He’s sharp, and he’s gets it, and very conscientious.” And so, that was our introduction to Eric, who’s been with the firm for 12 years.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:18:30] So, just like oftentimes, our best client relationships, the people we enjoy working with the most, people we feel like we can bring the most value to come from our existing clients or centers of influence, we thought, “Hey, we probably should reach out to the same folks, and maybe they could continue to point us in the right direction as far as some of our next staff as well.”
Peter Margaritis: [00:18:52] Yeah. I mean, that’s using your network for any type of support that you need, finding ,people finding opportunities, and your business as well as a CPA. There’s a long process, a long timeframe from going to prospect to clients. It doesn’t happen just overnight. And, especially, I look at your business and thinking,”Well, if I’m with somebody else now, but I want to come to you,” there’s a whole process of moving money into an organization. That takes a little bit of time to do.
Peter Margaritis: [00:19:34] As well as my perspective is (1), as a prospect, I got to feel comfortable with who I am transferring my moneys too. And that doesn’t happen. I think we had a couple lunches and a couple phone calls during that timeframe. And it’s
probably more than a couple lunches, more than a couple of phone calls until, finally, we moved the money and transfered the money from one account into your hands.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:20:02] Yeah. No, that’s correct. I was just kind of laughing at myself as I was listening to you talk there. Yeah, I met with a couple here most recently on Friday who we had done some one-time planning work for back in 2017. And, really, for about two years, we’d see each other out probably every month or every other month. And probably, every third time we see each other, he’d mentioned he’s still considering bringing the funds over, and he’d ask us for more information, and I compare to what his current advisor is doing, and yeah. And then, eventually, here we are, almost two years later, and we’re just actually going to see him after we hang up here on the podcast, and I’m going to go and have him and his wife for some final signatures to bring them over as clients.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:20:47] So, case, really, is just a referral. They come in, and you’re signing account paperwork at that first meeting because they had enough. They’re ready to go. They trust the person who referred them over. So, that does still happen. But more times than not, it takes months, and in some cases, even years to build that trust for them to bring their trust, and investments, and everything that goes with it over to you.
Peter Margaritis: [00:21:16] Yeah, as I was relaying that conversation we listened to, I know I didn’t take two years, but at least six to nine months I feel like in making the full transfer and move it into your organization.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:21:34] Yeah. I would say we don’t have the data that say what the average is, but that’s certainly not way out of the norm. And then, oftentimes, even once you bring someone over, depending on the complexity of their situation, it could be another year or longer before you’ve kind of put everything into place that makes sense for their situation too because everyone has busy schedules. They’ve got their own careers, and families, and stuff. So, you’re trying to work this all the other commitments.
Peter Margaritis: [00:22:04] And I can imagine. So, when you meet folks, do they ask you the question, “So, what’s your vision of the market and how where it’s going?” Do you get that question a lot?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:22:16] Sure, yeah. But whether it was back in the banking days or now with Vorisek, yeah, that’s common question. And it’s interesting too because people have different perspectives on asking that question. Some people ask it knowing that no one has a crystal ball, and they’re just kind of testing to see how you think through things. And then, especially, at the bank, some people would ask that question, and maybe even not realize it or just expect the banker, the financial advisor, to know everything that’s going to happen in the next 3, 6, 12 months. And so, it was interesting, the different viewpoints that people would bring that question forward with.
Peter Margaritis: [00:22:58] Well, you mentioned earlier in this conversation, you drive around, and you see a lot of things going on here in the Columbus, Ohio area. My days back in banking, I was a commercial lender, and my boss said, “When you see dirt moving, that’s good for the economy.” And I would say the Columbus, Ohio area, there’s been a lot of dirt moved in the last couple of years, if not more because I’ve seen more development even up here in the Westernville area than I’ve seen in years. I’ve been here for 24 years. So, right now, that the local economy feels like it’s pretty strong.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:23:33] Yeah, I would agree. Two recent scenarios, a firm that would be — my son’s early into travel basketball. So, we spent several weekends in January through March going to different tournaments in Columbus. And so, there are some areas of town that I had not been to for several years. And yeah, every single one of them had multiple condo projects, apartment projects, and a strip mall. So, it was eye opening that no matter what part of Columbus we were going to. Whether it’s Hilliard, or Dublin, or Westerville, even out towards the outside the 270 Newark and some of those areas, there is just development everywhere.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:24:10] Then, also, we do a fair amount of networking with commercial bankers. We, often, can provide value and vice versa to some of our clients’ own businesses. And I’ve met with several of them here. And maybe even in March,
they already hit their annual goal through March. So, they had some pretty good golf plans for the summer. But a lot of that, they’re all very adept and skilled at what they do. But they would be the first to admit, a lot of that’s just the growth, and everybody needing money, and the bank still being a big player in that space.
Peter Margaritis: [00:24:45] Yeah. I think of those here in the Westerville area as there are, I think, three to four projects, and they’re all focused on assisted living for retiring baby boomers. Every time I turn a quarter in this area, there’s another building or more building around those type of facilities, which I’m starting to think I’m not too far from that, but I think I want to go to a warmer climate.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:25:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, good point. Several realtors that we do work with, they’ve kind of tried to develop a niche within the real estate market of specifically prospecting and specifically building out product sets, and events, and seminars, and marketing efforts to folks looking to downsize or folks that are looking to transition. And, now, a lot of the same realtors, to your point, have been getting duly licensed in places like Florida or different places because a lot of those folks are three to six months, but still maybe have grandkids here in Columbus or other family connections that they’ll spend part of the year in one of those communities or developments you’re just describing. And then, part of the year down in Florida, or Arizona, or South Carolina.
Peter Margaritis: [00:26:10] So, Phil, we have talked in the past. And a lot of your, let’s just say, lifelong learning has been coming through. You’re an avid listener of podcasts.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:26:24] I am. I am.
Peter Margaritis: [00:26:26] And outside of your favorite one that I’m interviewing for right now, I have to tell you this because Phil contacted me, and one of the episodes, I don’t remember what it was, but he said that it was a Saturday, he was listening to it. And Saturday is fairly chore day around his house, and his chore is cleaning toilets. So, he had on my podcast, listening to it, and he said it made that job much more palatable
than without it. That’s one of the greatest compliments I’ve ever received. Somebody listening [crosstalk].
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:27:00] I’m glad you took it that way because that was certainly the intention. Yeah. Some of my friends and some other people at the firm, for us, podcasting – at least, for me, specifically – has really become probably my primary source of information. It was ironic, the week that we got together to help transition Vorisek, I met another business owner and entrepreneur, who also had her own podcast, and subsequently a few other clients have podcast. And it’s an avenue that we’ve been exploring some as a firm as well. I know some CPA firms here in town, you’ve turned me on to some of their podcasts.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:27:41] But yeah, for us with young kids, and busy careers, and community commitments, and coaching commitments, it’s just a good way, whether it’s scrubbing toilets, or at the gym in the morning, or are driving in between meetings. And you can be selective on the content that you want to listen to. So, yeah, I try to have a nice mix of business, political, sports, and entertainment, but that’s really my primary source of information now.
Peter Margaritis: [00:28:11] What are you two favorite business podcasts that you listen to?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:28:14] Besides yours?
Peter Margaritis: [00:28:16] Besides mine.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:28:17] I really like — the Wall Street Journal has four or five different ones from the market money updates to more general news. They’re usually 6 to 10 minutes. So, I usually try to get those in each day kind of versus just pulling the newspaper up and scanning headlines. It’s kind of a good way to — and I know there’s several other publications that do that same thing, but I’ve checked out a couple of them, but I think the Wall Street Journal has been my favorite.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:28:51] And then, just turned on to one recently I’ve really been enjoying, Planet Money. I’m not sure if you listen to that one. And then, there’s a couple within our industry that are catered towards financial advisors’s insight. I generally try to catch those each week as well.
Peter Margaritis: [00:29:15] Do you happen to know the name of those?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:29:17] Yeah. One is called the Financial Advisor Success Podcast. I’d probably botch his last name, but Michael Kitces. He’s kind of a national speaker in our industry. And so, easily try to catch his each week. And then, there’s another one called Between Now and Success by Steve Sanduski. And both of them are generally interviewing other folks in our industry, and they’re talking about their practices, and they’re talking about the markets, and talking about what technology they’re using, and how they’re networking, or how they’re doing their business development.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:29:55] And so, it’s kind of a nice way to benchmark, to get other ideas, to get other perspectives from different parts of the country, especially as our firm, more and more clients, to your earlier comment, that are retiring and moving to other parts of the country. So, it’s kind of nice to get outside of the Columbus bubble some too and kind of hear what some of the other firms are doing out there.
Peter Margaritis: [00:30:20] You said you listen to some sports podcasts. Just curious, what’s your favorite one?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:30:28] Of all the podcast, I probably try to limit, that would be the one that I could go down the rabbit trail on. So, I really do try to put a limit. There’s one, being here at Ohio State and growing up in Grandview, just a few minutes the university, high state sports in general kind of dominate the news around here. So, there’s one that’s called The Eleven Dub Cast. It’s one that’s a couple local personalities that, for the most part, are talking about everything Ohio State. Certainly, football being the primary focus, but even through the basketball season. They’ll even touch on some of the other sports and what’s going on there.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:31:08] So, probably, there’s one that I don’t miss each week. I usually listen to that one. I think one of the guys is actually, maybe, a history teacher here in town and writes for a local website called Bucknuts, and then, for Elevan Warriors maybe him. And then, other guys have been a local personality in the area for a while.
Peter Margaritis: [00:31:27] Because I’m going to asking what my guests more on what they’re listening to because, I think, that’s interesting. And it helps the audience go, “You know, the Planet Money might be something I might want to start listening to.” And I listen to the Wall Street Journal and a lot of a variety of different podcasts. But you said something. In listening to these podcasts, you pick up little nuggets that you can potentially apply into your business, as part of your business development that you may not have thought of before.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:31:59] Yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s only so much time, but there’s always kind of a thought that would be great to go out, and find some these other firms across the country, and grab a beer with them, or grab lunch with them, and pick their brain. But there’s only so much time in a week. So, to be just in your car, driving somewhere, or at the gym, and to hear someone else having that conversation, and you just able to listen in, I think, for me, that’s one of the huge values of the podcast world.
Peter Margaritis: [00:32:29] Yeah, I thoroughly agree. And I think, it’s — people ask me, “Have we capped out? Have we reached the pinnacle in podcasting?” And other research shows that no, we’re not even close. It feels like it, but we’re not even close. And it continues to grow exponentially, but it’s that ability to have that intimate dialogue with the person that you’re listening to than you’re thinking through because you would never had that opportunity unless you were face-to-face, like you said, having lunch or something. So, the information you’d get-
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:33:03] Or at a conference or, yeah, somewhere elsewhere where you can’t always be at all the different conferences that look good or all the different trainings that are out there.
Peter Margaritis: [00:33:11] Yeah. And the one that I listened to religiously is from the National Speakers Association called Voices of Experience. And they interview a lot of folks in my field of the speaking business coaching, authoring, so on, and so forth. And every time I get off that podcast, I pick up two or three ideas I would have never thought of if I hadn’t listened to that episode.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:33:34] Yeah. No, it’s, I guess, one of the disadvantages of driving. Sometimes, I’ll just stop the podcast or we use copy talk for our voice dictation. But yeah, I’ll just shoot to myself a quick message, and just try to keep track of all of it, and certainly understand that we’re not going to put every good idea into practice, but just to keep a kind of a list of them, and implement them when we can.
Peter Margaritis: [00:33:59] I’ll turn that into an accounting speak. You’ve got inventory of ideas, and you never know when you’ll need to go to that inventory, and see what you can pull out of that without — if you didn’t write them down, or you didn’t find ways to generate them, then you have nothing to work from. You’ve got a blank sheet of paper. But you’ve got a list. You’ve got you’ve got the inventories of great ideas. One of those ideas may be the game changer on the problem that you’re trying to solve.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:34:28] Yeah. And that’s part of the intent on some folks, but agreeing to give up their time to do the podcast is maybe you’re just not sure what professional or what what person to connect with just to solve that problem or to help with that pain point. It gives you a chance to interview them a little bit to hear them for anywhere from a half an hour an hour and a half, kind of talk through how they think about things. And so, I know we’ve actually searched out some different vendors and some different thought leaders just based on the podcast. We’ve reached out to them to kind of continue the dialogue.
Peter Margaritis: [00:35:05] That’s great. Anything else you’d like to share with the audience? Anything about the firm, or the type of individual, or net worth that you’re looking to bring in? We’ll use this as a plug to simply generate business for the firm.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:35:24] Sure, yeah. I’d appreciate that. And so, yeah, we’re a little bit unique from a standpoint, a lot of our competitors have a minimum client that they want to work with. For 30 plus years we’ve been helping people, we’ve never had a minimum. So, that’s allowed us to work with some of the younger professionals that maybe aren’t to a point where they’ve built up you know half a million, a million, two million dollars in assets. But we think, hopefully, we can help them even increase the speed to get into those numbers through some different planning strategies.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:35:58] And then, our core bread and butter is still the retiree or near retiree. And we really feel like we’ve built a good process around income planning, around risk management, and really just kind of customizing a specific solution for each of our clients. So, with a lot of the young professional crowd, and then the baby boomers that they’re building those homes for that you are not ready for yet, Pete. But, yeah, I think those are kind of the most. I think we hope about 700 families right now. And most, not all, fit into two of those categories.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:36:38] I would just make one other comment. One area we’re seeing a lot, as the economy and the marketplace changes, is we see a lot of people that are career changers or that are doing some type of transition from the corporate world to entrepreneurial world, or vice versa, or maybe starting second or third business. And one of their pain points is financially, how do they pull this off? How did they plan for it? And so, we’ve done quite a bit of work here in the last couple years with some of those folks. There’s a really talented career coach. His office is real close to ours. And so, we’ve been able to work with her on some stuff to really get some stuff in place for these people that are in transition mode.
Peter Margaritis: [00:37:21] That’s great. And I’m not mistaken, you listened to one of my episodes. I was interviewing a CFO of a company, younger guy. And I think you
were in the area and looked him up. And I think you’re building a potential relationship with him.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:37:38] Yeah, yeah. I know a lot of your guests are not in the Columbus area, but I was real impressed with the interview, and knew the company. It was down by — in my banking career, we were down in that area of Columbus a lot. And so, I was familiar with the company, and just reached out to him about the podcast. And I guess it was good timing because they were in a position to look for a financial advisor. And so, we’re able to connect and start working down that path.
Peter Margaritis: [00:38:06] That’s good because I recently had dinner with them, and completely slipped my mind to ask him. But the next time I see him, I am going to make sure that I make a comment to him and ask him the question. Now, I would be remiss if we didn’t as we get close to ending this thing. You mentioned earlier in the podcast, you have a young family. You have a wife and two boys?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:38:31] Yeah, we have. Our oldest is 10, and then we have two girls, 8 and 6.
Peter Margaritis: [00:38:38] Okay. So, I was completely wrong about that. I apologize.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:38:40] Well, now, you’re close enough.
Peter Margaritis: [00:38:43] Yeah. And your wife’s name is?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:38:46] Julie.
Peter Margaritis: [00:38:47] And your kids names are? What are there-
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:38:49] Oh yeah. I’m sorry, yeah. Julie. And then, we have the Zs. We have Zachary, Zoe, and Zadie.
Peter Margaritis: [00:38:56] Oh, the Z. Okay, cool. Well, I do like — you’ve got a lot going on. And you’re a husband, you’re a father, you’re a partner in a firm, and part of who you are is because of the people that are not so much behind the scenes but are there when you get home. And I always like to give a shoutout to the families. It’s something new that I’ve recently started because I think, I shout out to them because they’re there to help. It’s a team effort. And on the podcast, I just like the team all recognized, and accolades go out to everyone.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:39:40] Great. Yeeah, I’ll let Julie know. As much as I love podcasts, she’s on the other side of the spectrum. So, maybe this will actually get her to finally listen to a podcast.
Peter Margaritis: [00:39:51] I hope so. So, if somebody would like to contact you, how could they reach you?
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:39:58] Yeah. Probably best through e-mail. They could e-mail me at plovegrove@vorfin.com – that’s vorfin.com – or they can check us out at our website at vorisekfinancialcorp.com.
Peter Margaritis: [00:40:16] Great. So, if you need some help, Phil’s the man. Contact him. And Phil, I appreciate your time. I enjoyed this conversation. I look forward to the next time that we’re able to get together. I think, it’s actually over in a few weeks to get together and have lunch. But I wish you all the best of luck. And thanks again for being on podcast.
Phillip Lovegrove: [00:40:39] Yeah, thanks for having me out, Pete. I’m looking forward to seeing you and Mary here in a couple of weeks, and for all you’re doing for the profession in the Columbus community at large.
Peter Margaritis: [00:40:48] Thanks, Phil. Appreciate it.
Peter Margaritis: [00:40:52] Now, that you’ve listened to this episode, do you provide a needs-based approach in your work life? If so, how do we become better in this
approach? If not, will you develop the skills necessary to become a needs-based and hands-on personal service to your clients, customers, and employees? Either way, sit down, and devise a strategy, and work on it every single day.
Peter Margaritis: [00:41:20] Thank you for listening. And if you enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe and share this episode with a friend. And, also, remember to visit www.c-suiteradio.com to listen to many of the excellent business podcasts that they have in the network. Have a great week.
Announcer: [00:41:46] Like what you just heard, because it’s c-suiteradio.com. C-Suite Radio, turning the volume up on business.

Amy Franko: [00:00:00] We have to change the mindset or the language around business development and sales, so that we can create a culture that we want to create.

Peter Margaritis: [00:00:07] Welcome to Change your Mindset Podcast, formerly known as Improv is No Joke, where it’s all about believing that strong communication skills are the best way in delivering your technical accounting knowledge and growing your business. An effective way of building strong communication skills is by embracing the principles of applied improvisation.

Peter Margaritis: [00:00:37] Your host is Peter Margaritis, CPA, a.k.a. the Accidental Accountant. And he will interview financial professionals and business leaders to find their secret in building stronger relationships with their clients, customers, associates, and peers, all the while growing their businesses. So, let’s start the show.

Peter Margaritis: [00:01:05] Welcome to Episode 28. And my guest today is Amy Franko, who is a strategic sales expert, and author, and a keynote speaker. Amy built a successful business-to-business sales career with global technology companies like IBM and Lenovo.

Peter Margaritis: [00:01:21] In 2007, she took a pivot into entrepreneurship and launched a training firm, Impact Instruction Group. She has successfully built a book of business that includes some of the world’s most recognized brands, such as IBM, Deloitte, and BKD CPAs.

Peter Margaritis: [00:01:40] Amy, now, works with professional service firms, helping them grow their business development results and build firm leaders. In Amy’s new book, The Modern Seller, it’s an Amazon best seller and also named 2018 Top Sales Book by Top Sales World. The Modern Seller is not a book about prospecting or negotiating skills, it’s a book that explores the five skill sets that individuals and organizations need in order to become successful. These five skill sets are: agile, entrepreneurial, holistic, social, and ambassadors.

Peter Margaritis: [00:02:19] In the interview, Amy explains each one of these skill sets in greater detail and focus her thoughts towards the financial service industry. However, no matter what industry you’re in, the ability for you to develop these five necessary skill sets is crucial in your career development in today’s disruptive business environment that we’re operating in today.

Peter Margaritis: [00:02:43] Now, before we get to the interview, Change Your Mindset is now being distributed on C-Suite Radio. And you can find Change Your Mindset, as well as many other outstanding business podcasts, on C-Suite Radio by going to www.c-suiteradio.com.

Announcer: [00:03:00] This podcast is part of the C-Suite Radio Network, turning the volume off on business.

Peter Margaritis: [00:03:05] And, now, a word from our sponsor.

Sponsor: [00:03:09] This episode is sponsored by Peter A. Margaritis LLC, a.k.a. The Accidental Accountant. Are you looking for a high-content and engaging speaker for your next conference? Do you want to deliver a story to stakeholders that will transform data dumping to engaging business conversations? Do you want to feel that the value a speaker provides your audience far exceeds the dollar value on their invoice? Then, book Peter for your next conference, management retreat, or workshop. Contact Peter at peter@petermargaritis.com and visit his website at www.petermargaritis.com. By the way, one of his Fortune 50 clients actually made the comment about the value he brings to your audience.

Peter Margaritis: [00:03:57] Now, let’s get to the interview with Amy Franko.

Peter Margaritis: [00:04:06] Hey, welcome back, everybody. I’m excited today because I got a fellow NSA Ohio, O-H-I-O, speaker with me. Welcome, Amy Franko. And thank you for taking time out on this dreary, dull, rainy Columbus Day.

Amy Franko: [00:04:23] Thank you so much for having me. And O-H.

Peter Margaritis: [00:04:28] And Amy has just published a book back in October called The Modern Seller. And that’s going to be the basis of our conversation today. But before we do that, if you can give the audience a little taste of your background, how you got to this point that you’re a well-known, highly-published author.

Amy Franko: [00:04:49] Sure. So, the cliff notes’ version of that, if you will, is that the first 10 years of my career, I spent in technology and in sales. So, I’d call it a traditional B2B selling environment. I worked for IBM and for Lenovo. And then, for the past 12 years, I took a pivot into entrepreneurship.

Amy Franko: [00:05:10] 12 years ago, I founded a learning and development company, which that’s a whole other conversation in and of itself. But for the past 12 years, I’ve been in the learning and development field. And over the past five years, really niched down and got back to my roots in sales.

Amy Franko: [00:05:27] So, what that looks like today is I work primarily in professional services and work with organizations on business development and sales training. And then, also, keynote speaking, which is how you and I crossed paths at NSA Ohio.

Peter Margaritis: [00:05:41] Exactly. So, great sales background, great companies you’ve worked for. What was it about? And so, how you came with, “I need to write this book. I need to get this out of here and onto paper”? Was there a moment, that aha moment?

Amy Franko: [00:05:55] Yeah. Yeah. You know what, I’ve always loved to write ever since I was a kid. So, I think, reading, writing, those were things I absolutely loved to do. I was the kid who spent my days simultaneously at the pool, and then I would go to the library. So, I loved reading. I loved writing. So, I think that’s always been a part of me. And I enjoy writing. I’ve always enjoyed blogging and writing short-form posts. And so, that just kind of turned into a passion or a spark of an idea of wanting to to write this book. So, I kind of say that the book was, sort of, a 20-year dream and a 20-month project.

Amy Franko: [00:06:35] The catalyst for the book though, and maybe for someone who is in the midst of they’re evolving their career or maybe changing their career, the catalyst for the book came at the time when I started to really niche down into sales and wanting to create something to build additional credibility, additional visibility in that field. So, that was part of it. Timing was a catalyst.

Amy Franko: [00:07:00] And then, as far as the material for the book, as I was doing more work with clients and sales, I was seeing this need for these skills behind the skills. So, it’s not a book about prospecting, or presenting, negotiating, closing. Lots of great resources out there, and those are still much needed skills, But I wanted to dig into the skills behind the skills.

Amy Franko: [00:07:23] So, the book gets into five skill sets or capabilities that I see individuals and organizations needing to build. So, the catalyst was part-timing, and part content, and seeing what was happening in my own clients.

Peter Margaritis: [00:07:36] What are the five that you just referenced?

Amy Franko: [00:07:39] Yeah, yeah. So, a modern seller or a modern business developer, whatever you happen to do in your firm, they are agile, they’re entrepreneurial, they’re holistic, social, and ambassadors. So, the book digs into those five, and what does it look like in your firm or with your clients. And, most importantly, I like to think of it as a field guide. How do you actually build those in yourself, or if you’re a partner, a leader, how do you build them in your team and across your organization? So, looking at it from a couple of different angles.

Peter Margaritis: [00:08:14] So, agile. When I think of that, I think of adaptability. I think of moving and grooving.

Amy Franko: [00:08:21] Definitely.

Peter Margaritis: [00:08:23] And being out there, along with entrepreneurial. And when I think entrepreneurial, I think of fear because I don’t think there’s a lot of entrepreneurs out there that doesn’t live with it, but that’s motivating kind of fear.

Amy Franko: [00:08:35] Yeah, absolutely.

Peter Margaritis: [00:08:37] How do you explain this to, let’s say, the accounting profession?

Amy Franko: [00:08:42] Yeah. So, if I were to dig into it agile, it’s a place to start. Agility is something that wasn’t even really on the radar up until maybe about 10-15 years ago. It’s something that you heard about on the sports field, agility drills, but you really didn’t hear about it in a business sense.

Amy Franko: [00:09:02] Center for Creative Leadership has done research, and they’ve continued to do research on the top skills that organizations are looking to hire for and build. And agility really popped onto the radar maybe about 10 years ago. And by 2022, what they’re saying is agility, adaptability, versatility, those are going to be top five skills that organizations are looking to hire for.

Amy Franko: [00:09:29] And I would also suggest, they are top five skills that we need to be thinking about in business development and building because our clients are expecting that of us. They’re expecting us to show agility. And so, in order to do that, we have to be building that in ourselves.

Peter Margaritis: [00:09:45] What are some of these drills that you would suggest Because one of my favorite quotes from Simon Sinek says like, “Just because you went to a leadership seminar doesn’t make you a leader.”.

Amy Franko: [00:09:57] I know, right?

Peter Margaritis: [00:09:59] Yeah. You got to put in the work each and every day. It’s those drills. So, what do those drills look like? What does one need to do?

Amy Franko: [00:10:06] Yeah, yeah. And if I could come back to that Simon Sinek point for just a moment. When we were talking a little bit before we get on the podcast, this idea that you can go to a training, you can read a book, but the switch has to be in the application, and applying things, and trying them, and failing at them, and moving forward in them. That’s the only way that we learn. Leadership, business development, whatever that is.

Amy Franko: [00:10:35] So, for those who might be in a manager or a senior manager role, and you’re looking to grow to a partner level, growing to partner comes through a book of business, and making sure that we’re building a book of business.

Amy Franko: [00:10:49] So, back to your question about how do you actually build agility. So, a couple of things. One is building strategic speed. And yes, a strategic speed, I cannot take credit for that phrase. I first came across it from the Forum Corporation in some research that they’ve done, but strategic speed is the ability to work simultaneously toward the long-term and, also, creating momentum in the short-term.

Peter Margaritis: [00:11:16] Okay.

Amy Franko: [00:11:16] So, how do we build agility? Strategic speed is one of the ways that we can build agility. And I can’t take credit for that phrase. I first came across that from the Forum Corporation. And building strategic speed is simultaneously being able to work toward a long-term goal. Like, say, you’re looking at some kind of strategic initiative in the firm. Maybe it’s adding a new service line. Maybe it’s growing into a different geography vertical. That’s a long-term goal. That’s 12 plus months.

Amy Franko: [00:11:47] So, you’ve set something like that, but you also have to be able to create short-term wins, or quarterly wins, wins every six months to help you continue to build momentum toward the goal. So, it’s simultaneous. It’s almost looking in two directions: long term and short term. So, that’s one way we can build agility.

Peter Margaritis: [00:12:05] And you said a word. And it’s a four-letter F word, fail.

Amy Franko: [00:12:12] Yeah, right.

Peter Margaritis: [00:12:15] And nobody likes to fail, nobody, but that’s the only way we learn. And kind of like an DNA of a CPA and an accountant is failure is not an option.

Amy Franko: [00:12:27] No.

Peter Margaritis: [00:12:28] But that’s what changing their mindset is it’s okay to fail. It hurts, it doesn’t feel comfortable, but remember what you did, and try not to do that again, or try to look at it from a different angle, but the key is don’t give up.

Amy Franko: [00:12:48] Yeah. And I didn’t specifically say this when you asked me to share about my background but as people probably picked up on, I don’t have a CPA, accounting, finance background, whatsoever. So, even coming into this type of environment and building a book of business and professional services, there is a fair amount of failure that goes along with that.

Amy Franko: [00:13:13] And one of the things that I’ve picked up in my conversations with CPA firms is the idea that, sometimes, failure can be seen as, “If I make a mistake here, I may not be the trusted advisor in my clients’ and my prospective clients’ eyes, and we’re trusted to get everything right.” And so, if something doesn’t go according to plan, maybe you’re out there growing that new geography, growing that new vertical. If something doesn’t go according to plan, then we can internalize it, and we take it as a huge failure, but we’re not willing to take the risk again. And we have to be able to get past that.

Peter Margaritis: [00:13:51] Yeah. You got to get back on the horse if you get thrown off. And it hurts. I mean, we all know how it feels, but it feels so much better when we do succeed and, actually, see it through than given up at that point and walking away.

Amy Franko: [00:14:08] Yeah. So, sometimes, the things that don’t go right, the failures — and failure is not — nothing’s ever an absolute success or an absolute failure. There are things that go well and don’t go well about everything that we try. But part of agility is being able to pull the lessons out of that, and then you keep those lessons, and kind of let the other stuff go, and those lessons start to become your experience for the next time you’re faced with a situation that is completely unrelated. So, being able to apply our experiences to a new situation and figuring out what to do, that’s also agility.

Peter Margaritis: [00:14:45] Okay. So, talk about entrepreneur.

Amy Franko: [00:14:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, the idea behind a modern seller being an entrepreneur, being entrepreneurial is if you are — so, whether you’re manager, senior manager, you’re someone partner level, at the highest level in your firm, look at yourself or look at the people in your firm. Do they see themselves as employees, or do they see themselves as the founder and the CEO, maybe the chief bootstrapper, in their own book of business? Because that’s a real different way of thinking.

Amy Franko: [00:15:21] When you think of your book of business or your team’s book of business as a business, you make different decisions. You’re looking at the top line, you’re looking at the bottom line, you’re looking at your best opportunities. You’re not just looking in what’s right in front of you. You’re looking at the much bigger picture, and you make your decisions differently. So, we want to have people in our organization that are thinking entrepreneurially because that’s what’s going to help us grow.

Peter Margaritis: [00:15:48] I’ve always said to partners and firms, when you have a new hire, and they come in, their cubicles, their area that’s their shop. And the more that you can get them to realize that the revenue and the cost associated with that, by the time they get to the manager, they’ll be further ahead than where we are now.

Peter Margaritis: [00:16:09] But part of the reluctance of doing that is I’ve heard from other parties, “But we don’t want to tell them everything.” You don’t have to tell them everything, but taking time enough to get started, and as they move up that line, the thought process of an owner, the thought process of an entrepreneur makes you more vested in what you’re doing than just, “I’m here just to collect a check.”

Amy Franko: [00:16:34] Yeah, yeah. And the more — so, to that point, the earlier on in their time with you that they can be involved in opportunities, go on business development calls, be a part of RFPs and pursuits if that’s something that’s part of what you do, the earlier they get involved in that, the more exposure they get to the business as a whole, and they see that business as a whole, and they start to be given that opportunity to start thinking like that owner.

Amy Franko: [00:17:06] The other piece on that transparency part, I can understand reluctance to, sometimes, share everything that goes on behind the scenes, warts and all, right. But part of engagement and part of retaining that top talent is having a level of transparency that they really understand all the good, maybe some of the things that aren’t working so well in the business because they may have your next awesome idea that’s going to fix that problem or catapult the business forward. And we need to give them the opportunity to develop those skills.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:42] Exactly. And if they take the mindset of, “I’m investing into my people,” versus “What’s this training going to cost?” as well as — I still think — and I think you’d agree with me that when you think of business, when we go, and speak, and do workshops and stuff, that’s an event for us. We’re there, we’re gone. Now, it’s the responsibility of the organization to see it through and not revert. It’s so easy to revert back to the rut that we’ve been in because this is new, and hard, and different. Senior management, partners, whomever, have to be accountable to keep the message moving forward in order for it to be a success.

Amy Franko: [00:18:24] Right. That’s the reinforcement piece. And every time I am doing a speaking engagement, a keynote, or any kind of maybe longer-term learning initiative, it’s figuring out the most important ways to help them retain and reinforce, so that they can take it beyond that day. And I’m helping them to make sure that it’s getting embedded into their culture.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:48] Yeah, exactly. I believe the third one you mentioned was holistic.

Amy Franko: [00:18:53] Yeah, yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:54] Holistic.

Amy Franko: [00:18:55] Yeah. There is one thing that you said that I wanted to come back to and make a point on. And this is something I’ve started to do for myself. It’s the language between cost and investment. And I’ve started to think for myself, instead of using the word cost for something, “This costs X number of dollars. This costs x amount of time,” it’s thinking about it in terms of an investment. I mean, “I’m choosing to invest this amount of time. I’m choosing to invest this financially.”

Amy Franko: [00:19:28] And that flip of the switch has helped me to think a little differently about the decisions that I’m making about where I’m investing my time and where I’m investing my financial resources. And I would encourage anyone in any role in a CPA firm to start thinking about these types of skills as investments versus costs and seeing if that language change helps propel you forward.

Peter Margaritis: [00:19:54] Oh, it will. It will. And I remember who introduced that concept to me, Steve Gilliland. And it served me well. And I share that with other CPAs about get rid of the word cost. It’s negative. It’s the investment. I believe the third one of the five is holistic, which I’m still trying to get my mind about what you mean by that, holistic.

Amy Franko: [00:20:22] Yeah. So, it really takes — I look at it two ways in this particular capability. So, the first part of holistic is this idea that, in any given day, we have a finite amount of resources when it comes to our time, our energy, our motivation, and our discipline. The way in which we choose to invest those resources on any given day directly impacts our business development results, whatever results it is that we happen to be going for, business development or otherwise. And it’s the sum of those daily investments that determine whether or not we get those long-term goals or even those short-term goals. So, that’s the one way that I look at holistic in the book.

Amy Franko: [00:21:11] The other way is holistic when it comes to working with our clients and our prospective clients. And are we looking at the way we’re building a relationship with them? Holistic, are we looking at it holistically in the sense of mapping their buying expectations to the way that we happen to develop business? Are we looking at the entire ecosystem of our partners’ internal or external to help them reach their goals? So, it’s a personal look and a business look.

Peter Margaritis: [00:21:43] Okay, got it. You keeping saying the word “business development.”.

Amy Franko: [00:21:45] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:21:47] And I was a banker at one point in my life, and that was my favorite part of the job was the actual business development, but it also scares people because, now, oh God, that’s networking.

Amy Franko: [00:22:01] It’s sales.

Peter Margaritis: [00:22:01] It’s sales and networking, and those words that we really like. And I ask them about networking, and do they like networking, most people don’t. And I look them square in the eyes and say, “I blame your mother.” And they look at me like, “What?” “So, what did your mother always tell you? Never talk to-”

Amy Franko: [00:22:21] Strangers.

Peter Margaritis: [00:22:22] Right.

Amy Franko: [00:22:23] Right, that’s right.

Peter Margaritis: [00:22:24] But there’s no such thing as a stranger in a business environment. They’re just potential opportunities.

Amy Franko: [00:22:32] Yep. And I like to think of business developments, sales, whatever we happen to call it, we have to build cultures, a sales culture, a business development culture in our firms if we’re going to continue to be successful today and into the future. And I like to think of business development as creating the right relationships. So, to your point, networking.

Amy Franko: [00:22:56] And, also, looking at it as I am helping my professional services clients solve some of their biggest challenges. I’m a problem solver and a trusted advisor, I’m someone who’s strategic to their business. And what I bring is valuable. And we’re creating a mutually valuable relationship. We have to change that mindset or the language around business development and sales, so that we can create the culture that we want to create.

Peter Margaritis: [00:23:22] And the only way we can become better at business development, better at sales is do it every single day. This is the-

Amy Franko: [00:23:28] I love it.

Peter Margaritis: [00:23:28] This is the pot calling the kettle black. I will be transparent. It is. This is something that I’m working on every single day as an entrepreneur. I should be working on content. When I’m working on content, I should be able to do marketing. It’s-

Amy Franko: [00:23:42] I know.

Peter Margaritis: [00:23:42] But without the marketing, you’ll have the opportunities, so I won’t need the content. And it’s a key challenge to change that mindset but do it in small baby steps.

Amy Franko: [00:23:54] And to that point, one of the things that’s helped me is, now, I have CRM tools. I am actually looking at my desk. I have a good, old, handwritten notepad here with my prospecting list on it. And if we can invest as little as 30 to 60 minutes a day, if you have more, great, but to your point of baby steps, if we can block out 30 to 60 minutes a day of true focus on business development, we’re going to make progress. If we can block two hours a day on business development, we’ll make even more progress.

Amy Franko: [00:24:32] The idea – and this is around the holistic of where we’re investing our time, energy, discipline, motivation – is finding where we have the most energy in a given day and blocking our most important activities for those times of the day.

Peter Margaritis: [00:24:48] Exactly. And I’m doing a better job at it, and we all should do a better job at where do we invest that time, and what are we most productive. I feel, when I was writing the book, most productive comes first thing in the morning. So, that’s when I would write. I’m still doing some writing but, now, that first part of the morning, I invest in, okay, my marketing efforts, and what do I need to be doing because, then, I have the energy. Then, in the afternoon, I’ll do the other boring, tedious stuff.

Peter Margaritis: [00:25:14] Now, I was able to download a chapter from your book, and it was this fourth one on social. And I will say when I saw the word social, “Is she going down the social media path?” I’m going. But as I was reading through, you are not go down the social media path. So, it was very interesting. So, talk about social.

Amy Franko: [00:25:35] I get that reaction a lot is, “Oh, I’m ready for a whole section on social selling or social media.” And one of the things I really tried to steer clear of in the book was too much technology talk. Technology tools are enablers in a good way, I should say. They are enablers. And when we know the goals that we’re looking to accomplish, the relationships that we’re looking to build, the tools are out there to help us reach those goals. But I purposefully tried to steer clear of specific technology and tools for that reason because the tools always change.

Peter Margaritis: [00:26:14] Right.

Amy Franko: [00:26:14] The idea behind the social capability or the social dimension of the Modern Seller is social capital is never going to have a line item on a P&L. I don’t think it will anyway. I’ve never seen it. But the idea behind it is that individuals and organizations that really understand social capital – and I’ll give it a definition here in a moment – they really understand social capital, they understand the power of strategic relationships and investing intentionally in the right relationships because that’s going to help them accelerate their business development goals, any other goals. And you do it in a much more rewarding, impactful way when you approach a relationship-building with intention, and you’re very strategic about it.

Amy Franko: [00:27:02] And if I could give it a working definition to social capital, I see social capital as the collective value that our networks are able to build. So, I have a network. You, Peter, have a network. If we are combining our networks together in the service of a greater goal, we are creating social capital because our two networks are combined, are more powerful than us just as individuals.

Peter Margaritis: [00:27:31] Exactly. And so, how do you do that? Because I always look at you want to put the right people in your network. There is always somebody who I wanted to meet that I hadn’t met. So, I was always having to try to find someone for the introduction, or if I happened to be in an event that they were there, I would walk up, introduce myself, and try to start up a little bit of a conversation, and then follow up, and continue that have a drip, drip, drip campaign to build that relationship, to build that trust within the relationship. But once again, there’s no [indiscernible]. It just takes time. And a lot of times, we don’t have time.

Amy Franko: [00:28:09] Right, or we see that it takes time, and then we make a choice about whether or not we want to continue making that time investment. We have the time. It’s just choosing where we invest the time. But, yes, for really strong relationships, I would say that you can create good value in a short amount of time if you have the right intention and you know what’s important to them. And sure, we have to build that that longer-term trust over time.

Peter Margaritis: [00:28:45] Yes. And I want to go down a little different path with this because-

Amy Franko: [00:28:49] Yeah, sure.

Peter Margaritis: [00:28:51] … when we said invest, that’s part of the holistic aspect. So, I see how this is all tied in together. But getting the attention of folks who are protective prospects within business, and sometimes it’s hard to get past that gatekeeper. I’ve been challenging a lot of folks these days to when’s the last time they wrote an article on their expertise and had it published in some journal, some accounting journal, or in a newsletter within your organization to highlight yourself?

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:24] I had a former student of mine who has worked for Deloitte. She was on the tax side. When she got a new job, and she was writing, it was getting published in Business First. I’m like, “Holy cow.”

Amy Franko: [00:29:31] Great.

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:33] And then, we reconnected.

Amy Franko: [00:29:35] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:35] So, that’s another way. And to the point of I wanted to try to find somebody, there was a partner, and there was a firm called WithumSmith+Brown, and I wanted to meet somebody in that firm. I don’t know anybody in the firm, but I saw that one of the parties writes an article for Accounting Today. So, I got to them, I sent them e-mails, and I read, and just trying to get that door open, and it worked.

Amy Franko: [00:30:01] Yeah. And know, those are great door openers. I’m thinking of a prospect meeting that I have later this week that I was introduced to through Association for Accounting Marketing because I’ve done quite a bit of work for that association. I’ve done webinars, I’ve published articles, I’ve spoken at their conferences. So, I have, hopefully, proven my value by being part of that association. And then, an introduction was made for me by that association to this firm. And I would have never been able to open a door that quickly on my own, but that door was opened for me through a trusted relationship.

Amy Franko: [00:30:45] Now, that does not mean we’re going to necessarily do business together. It is simply an introduction for a conversation to understand more about what is it that they’re looking to accomplish. Could I be the right person? If so, great. Let’s continue the conversation. If not, maybe there’s someone in my network I can introduce them to. And that right there, if having your network and being willing to leverage your network in the service of others, that will keep the door open — that will open a door and keep it open every time.

Peter Margaritis: [00:31:15] Exactly. And I try to do that as well. If I’m not the right fit, do I know somebody who could be? Let me give you a referral.

Amy Franko: [00:31:22] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:31:24] So, last but not least is of the five?

Amy Franko: [00:31:27] Ambassador.

Peter Margaritis: [00:31:29] Ambassador. So, is this the one that’s going to tie all the other four together in, or is this just a thread that runs through all?

Amy Franko: [00:31:39] I think it’s a little bit of the “Yes and.” There is a — I love that [indiscernible].

Peter Margaritis: [00:31:46] Yeah, I love it. Yeah.

Amy Franko: [00:31:46] So, this one, it absolutely stands independently, but there is a thread. I would say that ambassador, in many ways, ties together agile, entrepreneurial, holistic, and social. Someone who is an ambassador, if we think about an ambassador in a global sense, an ambassador is someone who is a bridge between countries and cultures. We are ambassadors in much the same way. We’re ambassadors from our organizations to our clients and prospects. We are a bridge into the greater community, into our industries, into our associations.

Amy Franko: [00:32:30] So, when we start to think of ourselves as a bridge in that way, our job is to build those relationships, build those opportunities. Something that an ambassador is really, really good at, they are really great at being able to embody the values of their firm, but they also stand really uniquely tall in their own expertise, their own brand, something that makes them unique and stand out. They do not fall into the world of sameness. They absolutely stand out, but they embody the values of their firm too. And it makes them so valuable to the firm, to their prospects and clients, to the industry, et cetera.

Peter Margaritis: [00:33:14] So, thinking about the ambassador and how you describe it, it’s that visibility aspect. And I think a great way that’s underutilized about this ambassadorship is called volunteering or being part of a not-for-profit board, or volunteering at your state CPA society or association. And meeting everybody, but then building your brand, building that ambassadorship and thought leadership to a whole new level.

Amy Franko: [00:33:50] Absolutely. So, finding those organizations where you can stand out, and you can contribute. And I always try to challenge myself, for any organization that I want to contribute more to, what’s the highest profile, most impactful committee that I can find? And can I become a part of that? So, that’s absolutely one way that I look to grow my brand, and it’s through that association involvement.

Amy Franko: [00:34:18] And there’s a kind of a fine line. There’s so many associations that we can become a part of. And so, I kind of segment mine. I think about the ones where I am joining because it’s for my professional development. And then, I look at the ones, yeah, they’re still going to have a professional development piece to it, but I look at the ones that I can also say, “All right. Can this association, if I really provide value, can I become more visible to organizations that I’d like to do business with? Can I leverage it for business development?”

Amy Franko: [00:34:57] So, when I segment my organizations in that way, that helps me make better decisions about where I’m going to invest extra time to volunteer. If it gets back to being holistic, we have a finite amount of resources in a given day, and we have to be selective about where we’re investing those resources.

Peter Margaritis: [00:35:16] So, let me just sum up what I heard. Amy Franko is going to be the new president of the National Speakers Association Ohio chapter in the future.

Amy Franko: [00:35:26] Is that what you heard?

Peter Margaritis: [00:35:28] That’s exactly what I heard.

Amy Franko: [00:35:30] Did you all hear that if you’re listening? Did you hear anything?

Peter Margaritis: [00:35:32] I’m going to make sure that everybody at the chapter hears this.

Amy Franko: [00:35:39] I love it.

Peter Margaritis: [00:35:40] You would be an excellent, excellent president.

Amy Franko: [00:35:43] Thank you. I appreciate that.

Peter Margaritis: [00:35:47] Gosh. I’ve just — I mean — but you are investing. When you said professional development, you are investing that time into the organization, into the association, and to always continue to hone our skills. And I’ll tell you what, there’s no better place, If you ever do anything like we do – keynotes, training, or whatever – National Speakers Association around the country is a great place to invest your time into because that return on that investment is huge.

Amy Franko: [00:36:19] It’s such a high-caliber organization. I totally agree. And your last point about the return on investment, taking some time to think about what would you like that return on your investment to be for yourself, so that you can make choices about how to best invest your time.

Amy Franko: [00:36:38] I’ll use a quick example of something that has really helped me to develop business over time. And I think it falls well into the ambassador capability. I was part of the Association for Talent Development for a number of years. I still am. But at one time, I was very heavily invested locally, and I had created a couple of leadership forums.

Amy Franko: [00:37:00] And I ran these forums quarterly for a number of years, and I would use it as an opportunity to invite decision makers and leaders in my given spaces to come together as a networking opportunity and an educational opportunity for them. It was invitation-only, they had to be of a certain level in their organization, and there was no selling involved whatsoever. This is an idea anybody could adapt no matter what industry you’re in.

Amy Franko: [00:37:27] And I would bring these people together once a quarter over lunch. I would bring topics of interest to them. I would pull them, and I’d bring topics of interest to them. And that’s what we spent the time doing for 90 minutes once a quarter. Not once did I ever pitch my services or myself, but I can’t tell you how valuable it was for relationship-building, allowing these people to create their own networks with one another, and problem-solve with one another.

Amy Franko: [00:37:54] And it came back to me in spades in so many ways. Relationships, it did come back to me in terms of business development, business opportunities. So, that kind of winds a number of those dimensions together. It’s just one idea.

Peter Margaritis: [00:38:10] Yes, it does. You’ve just described something that’s been in the back of my head for a year.

Amy Franko: [00:38:15] Yeah?

Peter Margaritis: [00:38:16] Yeah. And, actually, I have thought about doing something very similar to that, to getting a group of partners and firms, and then also CFOs on meeting quarterly, but not as partners, and then the CFOs, and the partners, and the CFOs. And I’ve actually explored that idea. And I appreciate you bringing it up because I’d like to do a list again. It’s just that investment of time. But I will have to ask your advice on that when we’re done.

Amy Franko: [00:38:50] Yes, absolutely.

Peter Margaritis: [00:38:51] And what I was trying to accomplish. So, as we begin to wrap up, how do you put a nice bow on top of your book?

Amy Franko: [00:39:00] Yeah. So, how do I put a bow on it? So, one of the things, as I was writing the book and doing the research for the book, and this is very much a learning and development principle, we tend to learn in — I call it modular. We tend to learn in a way that’s modular, and we want things to build off of one another. So, anything that you learn, and then you pick up a new skill, you want those things to connect together.

Amy Franko: [00:39:24] So, the way that I wrote the book is that it’s in these five unique sections or dimensions. And as you were thinking about this conversation today, which one of those five really stands out to you the most? So, if you’re listening in to this, which one of those five caught your attention the most? That’s where I always recommend to start because when you start there, you’ll start to see other — you’ll start to see improvements in some of the other dimensions as well, So, that’s how I like to put the bow on it in terms of learning and development.

Peter Margaritis: [00:40:00] So, the one that stuck out to me, and I’ll resonate on as well is the holistic side because that was probably the big surprise at how you described it. It wasn’t what I was expecting, but I’m a big believer in that investment and that time. So, where can they find the book, The Modern Seller?

Amy Franko: [00:40:22] Yeah. So, if you go to amyfranko.com, you can find everything that you need about the book. You can download a free chapter. And it’s also available on Amazon hardcover, Kindle, and in about 60 days, audible.

Peter Margaritis: [00:40:37] So, let me just say it, Amy Franko, and it’s F-R-A-N-K-O, just to make sure everybody gets that, dot com. And I’m looking forward to seeing it come out in audible. And so, did you read it?

Amy Franko: [00:40:52] I did, yeah. I was the narrator. And after talking to a number of authors who had maybe they narrated it themselves or they outsourced the narration to a person, they all said, “Make sure to narrate your own book as the author. It’s your connection to your audience.” So, the narration out there is me.

Peter Margaritis: [00:41:14] Yeah, I narrated my book a couple of years ago, but I never uploaded to audible. It was shown up on my website, but I’ve decided the book has been out there so long, I’m going to launch it in audible, but I think I got it planned by June, the first book.

Amy Franko: [00:41:29] Okay, that’s exciting.

Peter Margaritis: [00:41:30] Well, congratulations on that. Thank you so very much, Amy.

Amy Franko: [00:41:33] Thank you.

Peter Margaritis: [00:41:34] I’m really excited about this book. I’d like to say, if you want to to get a hold of Amy, go to her website, amyfranko.com, everything you need. You can e-mail her. And I wish you all the best of luck and, hopefully, see you at a future NSA Ohio meeting.

Amy Franko: [00:41:49] Thank you, Peter. I appreciate it.

Peter Margaritis: [00:41:55] Now, that you listened to this episode, what are your next steps in the pursuit of becoming a modern seller? What are the five skill sets have you fully developed? Which of the five skill sets is your weakest? Will you build a strategy in strengthening your weakest and leveraging your strongest? Well, now is the time for action. Devise a strategy and work on it every single day. It takes baby steps in order to change a habit.

Peter Margaritis: [00:42:26] So, thank you for listening. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and share this episode with a friend. Also please visit www.c-suiteradio.com to listen to many of the excellent podcasts that they have in their network.

Announcer: [00:42:49] Like what you just heard? Because it’s c-suiteradio.com. C-Suite Radio, turning the volume up on business.

Samantha Bowling: [00:00:00] When people take on new technology projects, or they’re going to innovate something, they don’t know where their place is after the technology is innovated. They think they’re being replaced by technology. But if you just explain to them how they’re working with that technology to make their lives better, and the job better, and that they’re not being replaced, it’s elevating them to the next level, then, they’re less resistant.

Peter Margaritis: [00:00:30] Welcome to Change Your Mindset Podcast, formerly known as Improv is No Joke, where it’s all about believing that strong communication skills are the best way in delivering your technical accounting knowledge and growing your business. An effective way of building strong communication skills is by embracing the principles of applied improvisation.

Peter Margaritis: [00:00:51] Your host is Peter Margaritis, CPA, a.k.a. The Accidental Accountant, and he will interview financial professionals and business leaders to find their secret in building stronger relationships with their clients, customers, associates, and peers, all the while growing their businesses. So, let’s start the show.

Peter Margaritis: [00:01:19] Welcome to Episode 27. And my guest today is Samantha Bowling, who’s an Audit Partner at the accounting firm of Garbelman Winslow in Upper Marlboro, Maryland. Also, Samantha is the current Chair of the Executive Board of the Maryland Association of CPAs.

Peter Margaritis: [00:01:35] Now, this episode is focused on public accounting, but it also has great implications to the business and industry accounting professionals. So, please listen to the entire interview and decide on how it affects your organization.

Peter Margaritis: [00:01:47] Now, in March of 2016, artificial intelligence was introduced to the accounting profession when IBM and KPMG signed an agreement to bring Watson into KPMG’s audit practice. Many of the small- to middle-sized firms speculated that this technology was too expensive for their practices.

Peter Margaritis: [00:02:07] Samantha looked at it just a little bit different. She felt that if the larger firms had this advantage, how long would it be until they would start taking some of the small to middle-sized firm’s clients? She turned that question into action, and 18 months after IBM and KPMG’s announcement, Samantha was able to bring artificial intelligence into her audit practice at an affordable price.

Peter Margaritis: [00:02:34] Now, if you’re little skeptical or just mostly curious, then keep listening, and you’ll learn how she did it. It is absolutely fascinating.

Peter Margaritis: [00:02:43] I’m coming up on three years hosting this podcast, and a couple really cool things have occurred that I like to share with you. In May of 2017, I was speaking at a conference in Vancouver, British Columbia, and one of the attendees, Stephanie Gates, mentioned that she and her boss listen to my podcast. I believe my jaw hit the floor. After I reinstalled my jaw, I gave Stephanie a copy of my book, Improv is No Joke, and thanked her for being a faithful listener.

Peter Margaritis: [00:03:12] In December of 2018, I was an attendee at an Artificial Intelligence Conference in Tulsa, Maryland. During the session I asked a question. When the course is over, a gentleman walked over to me and asked me if I was Peter Margaritis. I hesitated. I wanted to say it depends, but I went, “Yes, I am.” He said that he knew it was me because he recognized my voice. He gave me his business card, but, somehow, I have misplaced it. If you are listening to this podcast, please send me an email with your name and address, and I’m going to send you a copy of my new book, Taking the Numb Out of Numbers.

Peter Margaritis: [00:03:50] And in March of 2019, I was teaching an Ethics class at the Maryland Association of CPAs. When the class ended one of the attendees, John Littleton, came up to me and said that he listens to my podcast. Now, I didn’t have a book on me, and I think I’m pretty sure I can get his address. So, I’m planning on sending him a copy of Taking the Numb Out of Numbers.

Peter Margaritis: [00:04:09] So, if anybody is listening to this podcast, sees me at a conference, a workshop, in an airport, or wherever, stop, and say hello, and let me know that you listen to the podcast. I will give or send you a copy of my latest book. This is a version of networking taken to a whole new level. I look forward to meeting you all. And, now, a quick word from our sponsor.

Sponsor: [00:04:34] This episode is sponsored by Peter A. Margaritas LLC a.k.a. The Accidental Accountant. Are you looking for a high content and engaging speaker for your next conference? Do you want to deliver a story to stakeholders that will transform data dumping to engaging business conversations? Do you want to feel that the value a speaker provides your audience far exceeds the dollar value on their invoice? Then, book Peter for your next conference, management retreat, or workshop. Contact Peter at peter@petermargaritis.com, and visit his website at www.petermargaritis.com. By the way, one of his Fortune 50 clients actually made the comment about the value he brings to your audience.

Peter Margaritis: [00:05:22] Before we get to the interview, I want to share with you that Change Your Mindset is now being distributed on C-Suite Radio. You can find Change Your Mindset and many other outstanding business podcasts on C-Suite Radio by going to www.c-suiteradio, all one word .com.

Announcer: [00:05:42] This podcast is part of the C-Suite Radio Network. Turning the volume up on business.

Peter Margaritis: [00:05:47] Now, let’s get to the interview with Samantha Bowling.

Peter Margaritis: [00:06:01] Hey, welcome back, everybody. I’m with my very special guest, Samantha Bowling, who is a partner in an accounting firm in Maryland. And we’re recording this on March 15th. So, first and foremost, Samantha, thank you for taking time out of your incredibly hectic busy schedule to spend time talking with me today.

Samantha Bowling: [00:06:22] You’re very welcome.

Peter Margaritis: [00:06:24] So, you’ve been busy lately or just kind of kickbacking bonbons and watching Ellen?

Samantha Bowling: [00:06:28] Just kicking back. No new tax laws, just hanging out.

Peter Margaritis: [00:06:33] I love the sarcasm. Very busy at this time of the year. And Samantha, if you could give everybody just a little bit of your background, so they can get to know you a little bit better.

Samantha Bowling: [00:06:45] Sure. I am a partner at a very small public accounting firm. This firm only has about 15 employees, depending on the time of year. And we really just, I guess, we do everything small firms do, except for government contracting. I am the audit partner at my firm. So, I’m in charge of auditing, but I also do individual corporate business, everything else. So, I’ve been here for 25 years. Start off as staff accountant and worked my way into a partner. This firm has been around for 75 years, and I hope it’s going to be around for another 75 more years.

Peter Margaritis: [00:07:17] And the name of the firm is Garbelman Winslow and is located in?

Samantha Bowling: [00:07:22] Prince George’s County, yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:07:24] Prince George’s County, Upper Marlboro, Maryland. It’s a small firm, but I will have to say you are very humble. Samantha, you left something out of your bio that is — I mean, she knows what I’m going to say because she’s got this grin on her face, this big wide smile. So, let everybody know this little bit of information that you left out of your bio?

Samantha Bowling: [00:07:49] Yes. So, I was nominated. First was I was nominated for Innovative Practitioner of the — gosh, Innovative Practitioner of the Year, not of the world, of the year. It feels like the world, of the year in 2018 by cpa.com. And, really, that was for my experience in using AI in my audit practice that I started, basically, two years ago.

Peter Margaritis: [00:08:13] And you were nominated.

Samantha Bowling: [00:08:14] And then, I won. Oh yeah, I forgot. The big surprise, I won. Imagine that.

Peter Margaritis: [00:08:20] Yeah, imagine that. She was the winner of the Innovative Practitioner Award 2018. So, if you think about what you’ve done — was that 18 months, 24 months ago, or something? — where KPMG came out and said they’ve got an agreement with IBM to bring Watson to the audit practice. And everybody thinks, “Watson-KPMG. It must take a train full of money just to get that going.” And you’ve said that you’ve got a small firm of only 15 people in Southern Maryland, and you won this award because you were able to bring artificial intelligence into the practice and make your auditing practice much more stronger.

Samantha Bowling: [00:09:04] Yeah, it’s very exciting and fascinating because being a member of council for AICPA, I heard the speech three years ago about KPMG. And I thought, as an audit partner, I’m going to probably lose a lot of revenue because if the large firms have Watson and I don’t have anything, I’m not going to be able to do auditing anymore. And then, I thought, “Well, what am I going to do? I really don’t like tax. So, I have to find a solution.”

Samantha Bowling: [00:09:28] So, I didn’t think it would be really fair for the monopoly to be a large firm and doing auditing. So, I came back to my office, and started talking to my software providers, and asked them first how they’re implementing AI in my platform. And they said they weren’t. They were only going to look into it for the large platform, large firm platforms. Again, large firm a lot of money, willing to pay for it. And I’m like, “Oh, well, maybe I really won’t be doing auditing.”.

Samantha Bowling: [00:09:56] So, then, I just did what everybody else does. I started Googling for an answer, for AI, affordable AI. And then, I just happened to come across a company called MindBridge. And I looked at their platform, and they said they were willing, as a startup company, willing to work with me and let me try it out to see if it really works. Because it was a Canadian company, they didn’t really know how to get into the US markets. And I thought I can’t afford this software. It’s probably not going to do what it says it’s going to do. And salespeople tell you it’s going to give you the world, and it does nothing. And then, you’re just frustrated because it doesn’t do anything you want it to do.

Samantha Bowling: [00:10:27] And I asked my managing partner if it was okay if I did this software. And he’s like, “I don’t think we’re ready to go to AI yet. I mean, really, is that really here?” I’m like, “Oh, it’s here. We’re going to go.” He’s like, “If you want to try it, go ahead.” And then, I did. And I was really just blown away of how it’s going to transform the auditing world. And I’m really happy that it’s accessible to everyone.

Peter Margaritis: [00:10:51] So, I have seen a demonstration. I was speaking in LA at an accounting conference, and one of their salespeople were speaking just before me. So, I get a chance to sit and ask him a lot of questions and learn about it. I’ve seen the demo. It’s quite fascinating. Can you describe this process that you go through with your clients and basically just have an artificial intelligence?

Samantha Bowling: [00:11:16] Sure.

Peter Margaritis: [00:11:17] It points you in the direction that you need to look.

Samantha Bowling: [00:11:20] Well, the most fascinating thing is if you’re familiar with auditing, it’s all based on risk. It’s a risk assessment in the beginning. And then, you figure out your testing based on what your risk is. And, really, to be honest, in the past, we were kind of guessing about risk. Especially if didn’t know anything about the client, we, kind of, were just like trying to get information, trying this assess risk, but never ever do we have access to the risk at the transaction level, and that’s where all the fraud occurs is at the transaction level.

Samantha Bowling: [00:11:48] So, what this software does is allows you to link your general ledger package directly to their platform. It analyzes every transaction that hits the general ledger, whether it’s a disbursement deposit, credit card, anything. And it says, based on those control points that are already built in the software, like normal accounting control points, and then it has the machine learning built in on top of it.

Samantha Bowling: [00:12:11] So, it’s that extra machine learning where it says, “Okay, I have a bunch of transactions. I learn a lot by having data. And then, what doesn’t make sense based on what this data has told me over this time period?” And then, it takes the transactions and puts them into buckets – the high risk, medium risk, low risk buckets. So, you can target your testing, or your sampling, based on the highest risk transactions, and then work your way down.

Samantha Bowling: [00:12:36] So, if you don’t have a lot of high risk, you move to medium risk, and then you move to low risk. And then, actually, in the low risk, you’re doing — The risk gets to the lowest transaction. So, it gives you a starting point. And I’m actually using it for risk assessment in the beginning of the audit to know how much risk is in this audit in the first place before I even either bid on the audit or even start working on it.

Peter Margaritis: [00:12:57] Interesting. So, you’ve got a bucket of high risk out there. So, naturally, you’re going to look at all of those transactions in that bucket.

Samantha Bowling: [00:13:06] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:13:06] Your medium risk, do you look at price points, or what’s the driver in that? Is that somewhat what you’d do with the low risk looking at those dollar amounts?

Samantha Bowling: [00:13:15] So, if you tell it you want your sample size to be 60 transactions, it automatically say, “Okay. We’re going to pull all the high risks, then the next medium risk, and then the rest are going to come from the low risk.” So, it will automatically do that for you. You don’t even really have to do anything except for tell it how many transactions you want to look at.

Samantha Bowling: [00:13:33] Now, you can go through the sample and say, “Okay. This is not a high-risk transaction because I know this was a unique thing that happened this year in that entity. And you can discount it. So, then I’ll remove it from this sample.” So, it’s not doing the work for you. It’s telling you where to start and using your professional skepticism to figure out what’s your next move.

Peter Margaritis: [00:13:54] It’s doing the work for you.

Samantha Bowling: [00:13:57] It’s not doing it. Well, it’s really not. It’s doing the searching for you, like the risk analysis for you, but it’s not doing the audit for you.

Peter Margaritis: [00:14:06] Right. But it’s helping you to get there faster.

Samantha Bowling: [00:14:11] Yes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:14:12] So, there’s all these children who are coming into our profession who will miss the experience of being locked in a conference room somewhere and digging through the bowels of a company through their files, looking for invoices, looking for source documents. They’ll never experience that.

Samantha Bowling: [00:14:33] I’m so happy for them. I mean-

Peter Margaritis: [00:14:34] There’s a rite of passage out there.

Samantha Bowling: [00:14:39] No. We’re supposed to make it better for the people behind us, not harder. They’re not supposed to suffer like we did. And, actually, I found by using the software that my audit team is actually learning as to why a transaction is high risk. They’re actually learning for picking their sample as opposed to before, they hated looking at samples and didn’t understand what they were doing, but they’re actually learning from what the software is teaching them.

Peter Margaritis: [00:15:07] Wow. Okay. Well, I was going to go on a tangent and say, “At least, you get CPE for that,” but I’ll save that for later conversation.

Samantha Bowling: [00:15:15] Okay.

Peter Margaritis: [00:15:15] So, when you’re younger, well, obviously, you’re at the staff level. I would say a traditional age. So, they’re loving the fact that they get get this technology, they’re learning more about the profession, but they still have work that they have to do.

Samantha Bowling: [00:15:29] Of course.

Peter Margaritis: [00:15:29] And getting the audit together.

Samantha Bowling: [00:15:32] Yeah. And we’re still looking at the documents that support the high-risk transactions, to make sure they really are substantiated, or we have documentation for it. So, we’re still doing the work. We’re just, actually, for once, looking in the right direction before we would guess. You haphazard sample and pray to God you get something that’s wrong. And in the past, you just never, never knew. So, now, you’re actually targeting your audit based on where all the risk is.

Peter Margaritis: [00:15:57] And within the program, is there a materiality factor in there?

Samantha Bowling: [00:16:03] I’m so glad you asked that because there actually is, but I have not been using it. I’ve said no materiality level. I want to see where all the risk is, and I don’t care what the dollar amount is because our clients don’t care. They don’t care about materiality. They don’t care about the fact that you’re not looking at trends. Materiality before was to limit your size of the transactions you’re looking at. That’s all it was for because you didn’t want to have a million transactions. Look, I had nothing to do with risk. But, now, that you’re looking at the riskiest transactions, I don’t think you should be using materiality.

Peter Margaritis: [00:16:35] Oh, I love it. I love it. Getting rid of the concept of materiality and being able to basically do 100% audit.

Samantha Bowling: [00:16:44] 100% risk-based audit, which is what we’re supposed to be doing in the first place, if you think about it.

Peter Margaritis: [00:16:49] Well, that’s the public perception. That’s what we’ve been doing for years and years but, in reality, it hasn’t been until now.

Samantha Bowling: [00:16:57] Right, right. Not until now.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:00] That just makes the profession so much stronger.

Samantha Bowling: [00:17:03] I agree. I totally agree.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:05] Yeah. So, is AI fraud-proof?

Samantha Bowling: [00:17:12] I would say nothing is fraud-proof because there’s always manipulation of data. Like if somebody figures out this system, there’s always going to be a manipulation of something in the data. So, if somebody, I think, eventually wants all of the systems start talking together. So, once you pull in like the AP and the AR ledgers, and match them to the general ledger, and then match them to the bank accounts, which was where we’re going, we have all this corroborating information in one place. Right now, we’re just doing the general ledger and some AR and AP. So, there’s that crossover, but until we actually get a crossover with the bank side or the outside vendor side, maybe until that happens, I don’t think it will be 100% fraud-proof.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:56] So, are you describing just now blockchain, in essence?

Samantha Bowling: [00:17:59] Yes, I am.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:02] And that’s still down the road.

Samantha Bowling: [00:18:04] Yeah. I haven’t gotten to that yet.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:07] But there is a process right now that is in place, RPA, robotic process automation. Did I say that right?

Samantha Bowling: [00:18:12] Yes, you did.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:13] Where these bots, per se, are doing the reconciliations of AR and AP in the same manner that you’re doing the reconciliation, looking at the general ledger, looking for those high risk, importing the people in the direction of where they need to investigate.

Samantha Bowling: [00:18:31] Right. And we’re actually going towards bots for bookkeeping in this summer. This summer, so I’ll let you know how that goes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:39] Okay. So, you’re looking at going to bots this summer.

Samantha Bowling: [00:18:42] Yes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:44] And for bookkeeping, for some of the smaller clients who may not be on a sophisticated GL system?

Samantha Bowling: [00:18:49] Yeah, who using like Quickbooks Online, or Xero, or things like that, or just desktop Quickbooks. Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:56] Okay. So, I use Quickbooks Online. So, this bot could reconcile all of my accounts that are in Quickbooks, like my credit card, my bank statements, so on, and so forth.

Samantha Bowling: [00:19:06] Yeah. And it can send you a little e-mail that says, “We don’t know where to code these transactions” because it doesn’t have any learning. It doesn’t have any history. So, if there’s a new transaction I may not know where to code it. So, it will send you this little email that says, “We don’t know where these things are supposed to go. Could you help us out?” And then, once you tell it, it will remember, and it won’t ask you again.

Peter Margaritis: [00:19:24] Well, I think my Quickbooks does a little bit of machine learning because after certain transactions, in a while, it will automatically start put in some of those little bells and whistles.

Samantha Bowling: [00:19:32] No, that is not machine learning.

Peter Margaritis: [00:19:34] All right. Okay. Thank you for correcting me.

Samantha Bowling: [00:19:38] Well, I was corrected on it because I really always thought Quickbooks Online had some kind of AI. But no, that’s just rules-based. It’s rules-based. So, it sets up a rule. Once you tell it a transaction, it sets a rule. So, whenever it sees that rule at transaction, it knows we had this rule in place, it’s always going to go there; as opposed to AI knowing that if you go to the grocery store, Safeway, it’s usually groceries. If you go to a gas station and knows any gas station – Exxon, Shell, whatever – it knows it’s gas. So, that’s kind of the difference.

Peter Margaritis: [00:20:08] Okay. I got it, and it continues to. That was one thing when we’re talking of AI, and I was listening to Amy Vetter do a presentation at a conference, and trying to go, “Wait, machines can learn?”

Samantha Bowling: [00:20:20] Yes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:20:21] But that concept was rally foreign to me, but after listening to her, and then hearing, I understand how the machine begins to learn. And, actually, I’m a Type 1 diabetic and the insulin pump that I have basically is a mini AI because it learns based off of algorithms and stuff on what my blood potentially can do based on this and that. And it’s actually amazing. It’s almost like having a real-life pancreas that I just wear my belt.

Samantha Bowling: [00:20:52] That’s true. So, true.

Peter Margaritis: [00:20:55] So, you’re going into bots because I see bots being a big asset in an organization. Now, what about your clients? So, that first client that you went up to said, “You know what, this year, we’re going to do something a little bit different. We want to download your GL into this artificial intelligence.”

Samantha Bowling: [00:21:12] Well, so, and I was going to charge him for it. So, I wasn’t going to eat the costs of the software because I saw the value in it. So, I went to my audit clients, and I said, “We had this engagement letter. This was the original fee for the engagement letter, I’m going to do a change order on this audit because I have a new staff on board and it’s AI. Let me explain what this AI does.”.

Samantha Bowling: [00:21:37] And I said, “This is how we used to do an audit. We used to guess, look at your sample.” And we tell them that every year when an audit is. “But this year I’m going to look at all the transactions. I’m going to base my sample on risks, so that you’ll have a better feeling about what I’m actually looking at and what the audit is. I’m going to charge you a software charge for my AI helper. And then, next year, if you opt out…” I’m giving them a chance to opt out of AI. Then, my original thing is if you opt out of AI, it’s going to cost you more because I risk your audit for me. But now, I’m to the point, if you’re not going to use that, I’m not going to do your audit.

Peter Margaritis: [00:22:13] Oh, okay.

Samantha Bowling: [00:22:15] And I’m standing strong to that. So, I have had some new proposals for audits, and I’d say, “Well, before I even do your audit or even make a proposal, I’d have to put your ledger into my AI platform and figure out what the risk is. So, I can make an educated guess about the fee. So, nobody’s surprised. I want to know at the beginning what I’m getting into. And then, you should now in the beginning how much it’s going to cost you.” And I’ve had two say, “No problem.” And I’ve had one say, “No way.” And I’m like, “Okay. Well, find another auditor. Just not going to do it.”

Peter Margaritis: [00:22:43] Wow. I mean, that’s a great pricing tool.

Samantha Bowling: [00:22:47] Yeah. And then, just think about all those things that you did in the past that you wish you would have billed more for because you knew what you’re getting into. And auditing is the worst place to get into that because you just really have no idea what you’re getting into.

Peter Margaritis: [00:23:00] Yeah, especially with a brand-new client.

Samantha Bowling: [00:23:02] Right.

Peter Margaritis: [00:23:02] And why did you leave your other CPA? And there’s not the full transparency of truth but-

Samantha Bowling: [00:23:09] Of course.

Peter Margaritis: [00:23:10] … being able to take that GL and dump it in, but, “Oh okay.”

Samantha Bowling: [00:23:13] Now, I know why. Now, I know why you left your other CPA.

Peter Margaritis: [00:23:18] And now, do we, as a firm, want to take this client on because of the risks? There is a risk reward pricing component.

Samantha Bowling: [00:23:25] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:23:25] But I would assume, at some point, if you get something that’s extremely risky, it’s “No way Jose.”

Samantha Bowling: [00:23:32] Yeah, exactly.

Peter Margaritis: [00:23:33] How else are you using this?

Samantha Bowling: [00:23:35] So, the only two ways that we’ve been using it is for a risk assessment, new audits, and then our sampling, our audit sampling. We want to start using it for like outsourced CFO, for internal audit departments to say, “Hey, where’s your risk? Don’t you want to know what your risk is before your auditor comes in?” Because this would be a great tool for controllers because they don’t have time to look at everything that their staff do, and they just don’t have time. So, if they could actually just look at the riskiest things, wouldn’t that be great for them?

Peter Margaritis: [00:24:03] Yeah, it would be.

Samantha Bowling: [00:24:06] Yeah. So, we haven’t done anything with it, to be honest, except for the auditing side. But there is so much potential for this software that, I think, it can be used in our review engagements that we have. Just to look at them just to say, like another service like, “Where’s the risk in your general ledger? Do you know what your bookkeepers doing, or do you not know what this person’s doing, or are there really risky transactions in there that you should be aware of?”

Peter Margaritis: [00:24:32] You could use that just with non-for-profits. In the news, there’s some lady that had been embezzling for years from some not and finally got caught 10 years later.

Samantha Bowling: [00:24:42] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:24:43] AI would have caught her.

Samantha Bowling: [00:24:43] That year that it happened because if you have — I’ll give you a perfect example. So, I had a nonprofit. This is a real example. I had a nonprofit who was paying rents, normal rent. Their rent does not fluctuate every month. For some reason, one month, they paid like, I don’t know, let’s say $4000 more than they would normally pay for rent. So, MindBridge automatically said, “Well, this is a high risk because it doesn’t match what I’ve learned every month of what their rent would be for this organization. So, I’m going to say it’s high risk.” So, it automatically pulled that transaction as high.

Samantha Bowling: [00:25:18] And then, the one time, they paid the wrong vendor is because somebody was in — the new person at their accounting department paid somebody else’s bill a total accident. But it flagged the transaction because it knows when you pay your rent, it’s always this person. The fact that you paid somebody different is a red flag, and you should really look at that transaction. So, that one got caught. I knew what fraud you’re talking about. That would have caught that because all these people kept changing vendors for the same classification of expenses.

Peter Margaritis: [00:25:46] Interesting. So, are you using this on all of your auditing clients, AI?

Samantha Bowling: [00:25:54] Yeah. And I do nonprofits. Those are my audits, which is a lot of risk because you have a bunch of people that change over, there’s different board of directors. And so, when I didn’t turn on the materiality, the funniest thing, you’ll will love this, I got one transaction that was, I don’t even know, like $87. I’m like, “Who cares? It’s $87.” I’m like, “Whatever. It’s in high risk. I’m going to look at it.” So, I asked for documentation on the $87, and they’re like, “Oh well, this was a personal charge from an officer on the nonprofit’s credit card.” I’m like, “Oh really?” I’m like. “Why did it pick this?”

Samantha Bowling: [00:26:30] Because the AI learned all the credit card transactions never was this vendor ever charged on a credit card. And, obviously, it was a personal expense. So, what did I do? pulled all the credit card statements from this officer to find out how many personal expenses, and there were a ton of them on this person. It’s very easy to do. I’m not saying it was intentional because you pulled up wrong credit card when you’re somewhere or whatever.

Samantha Bowling: [00:26:54] But just think if that wasn’t caught, how long that would have gone on? And then, what would have that led to because they would have thought, “Well, it’s not material because they’re looking at the stuff that’s under — I don’t know, Over $50,000 which…” they know know that there’s a materiality amount. So, they know that. People know that there’s a materiality now. So, they know you’re not looking at the stuff that’s below that.

Peter Margaritis: [00:27:13] Oh my God. Just think about the expense report fraud that could be uncovered.

Samantha Bowling: [00:27:17] Yes. Like the duplicate of reimbursements. Exactly, yeah, yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:27:22] Yeah. I’m going to submit my receipt. Here’s a copy for you guys to submit. And it’s the same thing. Yeah. That would almost just vanish. That would be a fun summer project to do is to do AI. And I would think that these large organizations are doing that right now.

Samantha Bowling: [00:27:41] I would hope so because it’s definitely an amazing tool. And the money they would invest in the software would save them money probably in the fraud that was covered.

Peter Margaritis: [00:27:51] Now, within your firm, only your clients are being used for AI with MindBridge. What about the other partners in the firm?

Samantha Bowling: [00:28:01] Well, none of my other partners do audits. They like to stay away. They don’t want anything to do with auditing.

Peter Margaritis: [00:28:05] So, those are the tax guys?

Samantha Bowling: [00:28:09] Yes. So, they’re all doing tax. And some of them do some bookkeeping work and compilations, but most of them are doing tax work.

Peter Margaritis: [00:28:17] Okay. So, let’s just say you take this, and AI will never come into the tax world at all?

Samantha Bowling: [00:28:22] No, I didn’t say that.

Peter Margaritis: [00:28:23] No. That was sarcasm on my part.

Samantha Bowling: [00:28:27] Oh yeah, okay. I told them, “Eventually, you might want to find some other career because that’s going to be automated.”

Peter Margaritis: [00:28:31] At least, from the W2, the individual personal returns, those are going to be — And I would love it because I still haven’t got my tax stuff together. And I know my CPA started to scream at me versus just having it all go into some place, and I don’t have-

Samantha Bowling: [00:28:52] So, what really happened is the IRS will send you a bill, and say, “This is your tax bill. Do you agree or don’t you agree?” And if you don’t agree, go see a CPA to fix it. It’s where I think it’s going to end up because they’re-

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:02] Interesting.

Samantha Bowling: [00:29:03] Because they’re already getting the documents electronically. They are. It’s just a matter — they don’t have, I don’t think, the sophisticated systems to compile all that information actually.

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:14] Yeah, like a Schedule C.

Samantha Bowling: [00:29:15] Right.

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:16] Yeah.

Samantha Bowling: [00:29:16] But that will be later. But with the W2s and the basic returns, that definitely could be all done by the IRS.

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:23] Yeah. And I believe that’s sooner than later that that-

Samantha Bowling: [00:29:28] That will be in my career, I guarantee it within the next 5-8 years.

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:33] I was going to say three to five.

Samantha Bowling: [00:29:35] That would be awesome. I hope so.

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:38] So, here’s a question because when you think of CPA, and thinking of what we do, and you think about artificial intelligence, will we still have the need for Excel?

Samantha Bowling: [00:29:50] That’s a good question. I guess, it depends. I would say yes until — if you look at a lot of our clients, they are using these legacy platforms. Even larger clients are using legacy platforms. So, in order to get their information into these AI platforms, they have to go to Excel first because their systems are so antiquated, they can’t get it to the AI platform. So, we’re going to still need Excel.

Peter Margaritis: [00:30:16] Okay, for a little bit longer.

Samantha Bowling: [00:30:19] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:30:19] Okay. All right.

Samantha Bowling: [00:30:21] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:30:21] So, let’s change gears for a moment. You are currently the Chair of the Executive Board for the Maryland Association of CPAs.

Samantha Bowling: [00:30:27] I am. A huge honor.

Peter Margaritis: [00:30:28] Technically — Tom Hood, I hope you’re listening. Technically, you’re Tom Hood’s boss.

Samantha Bowling: [00:30:35] I can’t even fathom that. I feel like he’s definitely my boss. I worship and honor him, yeah. So, I follow him. I will follow him wherever he goes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:30:43] And it doesn’t surprise me that somebody who’s been on the board and has been around Tom for such a long time saw this opportunity and jumped on AI because Tom’s been preaching about it, talking about it way before the AICPA even put it on the agenda. He’s one of those rare visionaries out there that has done wonders for the profession.

Samantha Bowling: [00:31:09] Yes, he has.

Peter Margaritis: [00:31:10] So, as being chair, and you’ve mentioned you’re part of AICPA Council, what’s accountants talking about these days? What’s out in our future? What’s keeping AICPA awake at night?

Samantha Bowling: [00:31:23] I think they’re their biggest concern was, will small firms be able to adapt? Well, I mean, because Tom’s been preaching for 20 years that you need to innovate, you need to use technology. And a lot of small firms, kind of, ignored that.

Samantha Bowling: [00:31:39] So, I think their biggest concern is small firms and will they remain relevant, because they don’t really want all the large firms doing all the work either. They want small firms that have the same opportunities. And I think they were really surprised that the AI platform was available to me at this early stage. So, I think that’s keeping them up at night because a large number of their membership is sole proprietors and small firms, believe it or not. That’s what makes up the accounting profession, the public accounting.

Peter Margaritis: [00:32:10] So, I can lay this in one or two ways. Either they’re going to adapt to technology-

Samantha Bowling: [00:32:15] Or they’re going to close our doors.

Peter Margaritis: [00:32:18] Or — well, firms like yourself take a strategy and say, “Maybe we can grow and start buying other firms.”

Samantha Bowling: [00:32:30] I did that once. I’ll never do that again.

Peter Margaritis: [00:32:33] She wasn’t adamant about that at all. I’m going to have to go get my hearing fixed here in a second.

Samantha Bowling: [00:32:41] I will not even venture. They’re not paperless. Like if there’s a firm out there, a small firm that has paper and file cabinets, their firm is not worth anything. And I’m not putting the work into it to convert them to where they should be. I did it once, and it was a lot of work. And I don’t know if the benefit was really there and the clients that we retained from that.

Peter Margaritis: [00:33:03] So, growth from a small firm like yourself is just word of mouth, and bringing in more clients, and growing organically, per se, and hiring more folks.

Samantha Bowling: [00:33:16] Yes, that’s true. Most of our work is from referrals, word of mouth.

Peter Margaritis: [00:33:20] Okay. So, how has AI changed the way your staff have to integrate. There is less bean counting, per se, number crunching, and there’s more communication.

Samantha Bowling: [00:33:37] The problem is our clients are not where they should be either. So, we’re trying to move with them, like kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. So, as you can imagine, our firm that’s been around for 75 years, has clients that have done paper, who have handwritten journals, who still handwrite checks that refuse to move into the 21st Century.

Samantha Bowling: [00:33:57] So, now, our responsibility is to get all of our clients, since we’re where we should be, I feel, for now anyway, for today, of course, it can change tomorrow, is getting our clients to where they should be, and being innovative, and not being afraid to grab on to technology, and realize how really good it is for them.

Peter Margaritis: [00:34:15] Why is everybody so fearful? I mean, I think — I’ll use my wife as an example. She’s a general manager for Macy’s for 25 years at the huge store here in the Columbus area. She’s more fearful of technology. Actually, so much so that her boss once called her technically Amish.

Samantha Bowling: [00:34:38] That’s great. I’ve never heard that.

Peter Margaritis: [00:34:40] Technologically Amish. But if you don’t adapt to — we’re never going to go back. We’re not going to go back to the flip phone.

Samantha Bowling: [00:34:52] I think the problem is when people take on new technology projects, or they’re going to innovate something, they don’t know where their place is after the technology is innovated. They think they’re being replaced by technology. But if you just explain to them how they’re working with that technology to make their lives better, the job better, and that they’re not being replaced, it’s elevating them to the next level, then they’re less resistant. I think they’re afraid of being replaced by the terminator or something. I think what’s happening.

Peter Margaritis: [00:35:21] Right. And it, also, could go to the culture of the organization as well.

Samantha Bowling: [00:35:27] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:35:27] There was a firm here in Ohio that they gave training because they wanted to automate. This was some years ago. Instead of getting a report, typed it into Excel, to upload it into Excel. The workforce was heavily baby boomer and heavily millennial. And few of the baby boomers think they had training but were fearful of saying, “I didn’t get it. I didn’t understand.” And they went back to what they were doing before. And, ultimately, they were fired. So, I think I also go to within how much the C Suite, per se, has embraced that technology.

Samantha Bowling: [00:36:03] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:36:04] And communicated the benefits.

Samantha Bowling: [00:36:06] And I also think — so, let’s say somebody is intimidated by technology. Maybe they’re not the ones manipulating the data in the technology. They’re using the higher-level staff that’s doing the analytical from the reports that was done. So, these millennials can whip, snap, whatever, generate anything in the report. And they run circles around me. So, they can do 10 times faster than I can. So, figure out what people’s strengths are. Let them do that part. And then, maybe the more resistant people just analyze the results and don’t have to be involved with getting the technology to work.

Peter Margaritis: [00:36:39] But it’s getting them to — it’s really getting them to understand that they are not — We can’t say that all the time they’re not going to be replaced because I think some folks will be replaced.

Samantha Bowling: [00:36:53] Bookkeepers will be replaced, for sure, but I have bookkeepers in my office. So, the stuff that they will be replaced, they don’t want to do anyway. They don’t want to be coding checks. They don’t want to be doing any of that crap. So, the fact that the bots are going to take that over for them, they’re a thrill because they know they’re going to learn more by actually looking at the reports, looking at the transactions, and figuring out what a financial statement means. So, they’re happy about it. They don’t want to be doing all that manual work. They really don’t.

Peter Margaritis: [00:37:19] And the ability to use bots in a bookkeeping firm, it’s pretty much here.

Samantha Bowling: [00:37:26] Yeah. Oh, it’s here. Oh, it’s here. Oh, it’s here. It’s totally here.

Peter Margaritis: [00:37:29] Yeah, yeah. She just laughs at the old time, Jody Padar.

Samantha Bowling: [00:37:35] Yeah, she’s my friend.

Peter Margaritis: [00:37:37] Yes, Jody. And I interviewed her a couple of years ago, and she’s talking about bots and stuff, I’m like, “Huh? I don’t get it,” And then, I saw her at the dinner that night, before the summit, and she is partnering with Botkeeper.

Samantha Bowling: [00:37:54] Yes, she is. That’s an amazing thing. So, I’m really excited for her. I mean, we’ve probably met when she first took over her dad’s firm and was trying to get everything paperless. And I had told her that’s when I first went into the cloud platform of accounting software a long, long time ago. That’s a whole another story. But she’s like, “Why did you do that?” I said, “Because I had a client that went to jail, and I had to be able to do their stuff for them while they were gone. So, I wanted to be [inaudible] as to everything.” But she’s like, “What? Are you talking about…” “Yeah, yeah.”

Samantha Bowling: [00:38:26] So, technology’s always been my friend, always. It’s given me the advantage. It’s giving me opportunities. It’s never — I mean, I’ve picked bad offers in the past, but you fail fast. If it’s not working the way you think it’s working, and then move on, find the next one that’s going to work for you.

Peter Margaritis: [00:38:45] And I know you have a real close relationship with MindBridge because they ask you a lot of questions on how they can improve their software, which has got to be — and do you go out and speak on their behalf at times?

Samantha Bowling: [00:38:58] Sometimes. I’ve gone to that, I got invited to the Canadian Embassy this past year just to listen. They wanted some people locally that were using this offer to come because they’re kind of doing their software pitch. I wasn’t supposed to speak, but when I got there, I guess there were some reporters there that were saying, “You’re salespeople. We don’t really understand what you’re talking about. We need to talk to your customer, one of your customers.”

Samantha Bowling: [00:39:21] And, of course, I happened to be there. Like, “Oh, we have one here. Would you like to talk to her?” So, I have volunteered to speak but not really. And I do blogs for them, just so other people know how I’m using the software because I think a lot of small firms think that they don’t have access to the technology. So, I want to make sure that they do have access and kind of explain in auditing terms what it’s going to do for them.

Peter Margaritis: [00:39:44] So, by doing this, and people hearing about you, did you email blow up? Is your phone ringing off the hook? Are you the go-to person for small businesses at AI?

Samantha Bowling: [00:39:56] Pretty much. Yeah, I can always tell when Tom Hood is traveling because the next day, I’ll get like — I don’t even know — 40 emails or something about, “I heard Tom Hood is speaking or whatever. And I heard you’re using AI,” and da, da, da, da, whatever. Yeah. So, I’m more than happy to talk to anybody about it because I feel like the more we talk about it, the more small firms get involved with it, and the better we are as a profession.

Peter Margaritis: [00:40:21] And full transparency, that presentation I did out in LA, Tom was already booked. So, they asked if I would go do this. And I said, “Yes, I would.” And I’m reading this, going through the stuff, and seeing this firm, Garbelman Winslow, and trying to put — what? Trying to get my head wrapped around it. I got it wrapped around enough.

Peter Margaritis: [00:40:41] And then, I put it all the other way. “Wait, you’re the person at the firm with the AI and the MindBridge.” And then, it all came into fruition. And hearing them speak then, hearing them and you speak at the AI Conference in Maryland in December really helped me understand more about how AI will help a firm or help my company, and a lot of times, will not replace, but they’re there to help us do our jobs better.

Samantha Bowling: [00:41:14] Exactly. It’s helping us do what we should have been doing all along.

Peter Margaritis: [00:41:18] But we just didn’t have the technology.

Samantha Bowling: [00:41:19] We didn’t have the technology to do it, yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:41:21] Moore’s Law hadn’t quite caught up to where we are today. And so, how do you see this five years from now? I mean, I remember Jody saying, “We’ll have bots on our desks soon.” And I just kind of laughed at her. And I think she said I have to be careful who’s in the room because like, “Do you have Alexa?” on my desk. I said yes. “That’s basically a bot.”

Samantha Bowling: [00:41:48] I have. I’m showing you my — it’s my Alexa.

Peter Margaritis: [00:41:48] Hi, Alexa. I’m getting that. I’m playing with that and Google Home trying to figure out which is the best one. And, actually, from the speaker’s perspective, Amazon, just Amazon blueprint, well, you can go out and program your own Alexa. And I’m in the process of doing that because I want my Alexa to do my introductions from now on.

Samantha Bowling: [00:42:12] Sweet. That’s exciting.

Peter Margaritis: [00:42:13] Yeah. There’s some neat stuff that’s going on out there, but as it relates to the accounting world, what’s next? Is it blockchain? Is that what’s, ultimately, the missing component that ties everything together?

Samantha Bowling: [00:42:26] I think so, especially with more of the currency, electronic currency, they’re going to have to use blockchain to validate all this stuff. And that’s definitely going to be in our future. Now, small firms might not see that right away because we don’t have as many international companies that were auditing, but it’s definitely the next thing.

Samantha Bowling: [00:42:43] But I am curious to see where the line is going to go between fraud audits and regular audits because I’m really worried about, what if I do this audit, and I find fraud or frauds, like serious fraud? Because I’m not doing fraud audits. I’m doing gap audit. So, if I came across something that I thought was a fraudulent transaction, in the past, I would have my client hire a forensic auditor because I didn’t have the knowledge to do it.

Samantha Bowling: [00:43:09] But is the AI going to be my forensic auditor, or is there going to be no lie now between gap and forensic auditing? Is it just going to be auditing? I don’t know. I don’t know where that’s going. So, I’m kind of curious to see where that’s going. And I’m anxious for our standards to catch up to where we need to be, so that I don’t have to keep looking at all these facts when, really, it’s just to be based on risk.

Peter Margaritis: [00:43:33] Right. And that’s interesting. So, what fraud oddity. Forensic accounting just be accounting.

Samantha Bowling: [00:43:42] Yeah, just be auditing.

Peter Margaritis: [00:43:43] Just be auditing. Just [crosstalk].

Samantha Bowling: [00:43:43] It’s part of the audit. It’s just of the audit.

Peter Margaritis: [00:43:48] That is interesting insight. How will that transpire?

Samantha Bowling: [00:43:53] I don’t know.

Peter Margaritis: [00:43:54] Huh. Anybody at AICPA made any comments about that?

Samantha Bowling: [00:44:00] Not that I’m aware of, no, not yet.

Peter Margaritis: [00:44:01] Not yet. Not yet.

Samantha Bowling: [00:44:01] No. I’m going to New York actually on Monday. So, I’ll bring it up. I have a council meeting in March in New York.

Peter Margaritis: [00:44:14] Yeah. In Ohio, we will either go to Chicago or to New York. And a couple of times, we went to New York. I like New York better. Yeah, it’s-

Samantha Bowling: [00:44:23] It’s a nice change of scenery.

Peter Margaritis: [00:44:25] Yeah. You should you ask Barry.

Samantha Bowling: [00:44:28] Yeah, I have to ask him.

Peter Margaritis: [00:44:28] “What do you think about this?” It’d be interesting to get his perception on it. I haven’t thought about that. Now, I get something to ponder over the weekend and explore a little. How that transpire? Is there anything that you — I have to ask this question. You’re very busy. You’re a very busy lady. I mean, all the stuff that you do, you have a family at home.

Samantha Bowling: [00:44:54] I have a husband and a dog.

Peter Margaritis: [00:44:58] A husband and dog.

Samantha Bowling: [00:44:58] Yeah. And a ton of nieces and nephews. Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:45:02] So, I always ask whole piece. So, I interviewed the episode before this one, Kimberly Ellison-Taylor.

Samantha Bowling: [00:45:10] Kimberly, yes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:45:11] Ellison-Taylor. And she’s got three kids, and a husband, and she’s all over the place. And even just having a relationship and in this profession, it’s challenging for what you do. So, I don’t know. I never met your husband. I don’t know his name, but I want to give a big shout out to him.

Samantha Bowling: [00:45:28] His name is David. And you should because he’s sacrificed a lot, and he is a great support. I could not have done everything that I’ve done without his support.

Peter Margaritis: [00:45:38] So, David, congratulations and keep up the good work. I mean, your wife is doing some fabulous stuff here. And you get to tell me the name of the dog.

Samantha Bowling: [00:45:48] Cooper.

Peter Margaritis: [00:45:49] And what kind of dog is Cooper?

Samantha Bowling: [00:45:52] He’s a Yellow Lab.

Peter Margaritis: [00:45:54] Oh.

Samantha Bowling: [00:45:54] So sweet.

Peter Margaritis: [00:45:56] My wife cannot listen to this episode because we have a black and a chocolate Lab.

Samantha Bowling: [00:46:01] They’re the sweetest dogs.

Peter Margaritis: [00:46:02] She’s always a blonde Lab.

Samantha Bowling: [00:46:04] She can borrow mine anytime.

Peter Margaritis: [00:46:08] Yeah, they are. They’re great dogs. They’re excited to see every time you come home, and they’ll almost eat anything in sight.

Samantha Bowling: [00:46:14] Yes, they will.

Peter Margaritis: [00:46:16] Well, Samantha, thank you so very much. I’ve enjoyed our conversation. I applaud everything that you’re doing, and bringing smaller firms into the 21st Century, and hopefully beyond. If I could ever help you with anything, please don’t let me do your taxes or anything like that, but if I can be of any assistance, please don’t hesitate to contact me. And I wish you all the best luck. And you still have — It’s like 3:14 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. She still has a more hours of work to do today.

Samantha Bowling: [00:46:43] If I’m lucky, it’s only eight.

Peter Margaritis: [00:46:48] Thank you very much.

Samantha Bowling: [00:46:49] Thank you.

Peter Margaritis: [00:46:56] Now that you listened to this episode, what are your next steps in the pursuit of new technology into your organization? Will you take CP and focus on the latest technology? If so, then, look for courses being taught by Amy Vetter. Amy is an expert in this field, and I interviewed her on my very first episode of Change Your Mindset Podcast, which was formerly known as Improv is No Joke.

Peter Margaritis: [00:47:20] Or will it be to learn more about how AI can assist you in your business? If I may suggest, go visit MindBridge’s website at mindbridge.ai. Full transparency, I’m not being paid or receiving any compensation for this suggestion. I’ve seen the demonstration, and I attended the AI Conference that they spoke about this technology, and it was fascinating.

Peter Margaritis: [00:47:50] Thank you for listening. And if you’re enjoying this podcast, please subscribe and share this episode with a friend. Also, please visit www.c-suiteradio.com and listen to many of the excellent business podcast that they have in their network. Thank you.

Announcer: [00:48:11] Like what you just heard? Because it’s c-suiteradio.com. C-Suite Radio, turning the volume up on business.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:00:00] We all can grow, we all can change, we all can evolve, and we all can accept what’s around the corner because the generations that have come before us gave us a great foundation, and we have a responsibility to make it better for the next generation.

Peter Margaritis: [00:00:26] Welcome to Change Your Mindset Podcast, formerly known as Improv is No Joke, where it’s all about believing that strong communication skills are the best way in delivering your technical accounting knowledge and growing your business. An effective way of building stronger communication skills is by embracing the principles of applied improvisation.

Peter Margaritis: [00:00:47] Your host is Peter Margaritis, CPA, a.k.a. The Accidental Accountant. And he will interview financial professionals and business leaders to find their secret in building stronger relationships with their clients, customers, associates, and peers, all the while growing their businesses. So, let’s start the show.

Peter Margaritis: [00:01:13] Welcome to Episode 26. And my very special guest today is Kimberly Ellison-Taylor, who is one remarkable woman. Kimberly is currently a Global Strategy Leader at Oracle. She has held positions at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Motorola, KPMG and a role in government at Prince George’s County in Maryland.

Peter Margaritis: [00:01:32] Now, from 2016 to 2018, Kimberly served as 104th Chairman of the American Institute of CPAs, where she received numerous awards and recognition. Notably, she was the youngest person, the fifth woman, and first person of color to serve as chairman in the AICPA’s 130-year history. Kimberly was the second Chairman for the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants, an organization founded in 2017 that has 667,000 members in 184 countries. She’s been recognized by Accounting Today as one of the Top People in Public Accounting 2018 and by CPA Practice Advisor as one of the 2018 Most Powerful Women in Accounting.

Peter Margaritis: [00:02:22] Her drive, energy, and passion can be traced back to where she was growing up in inner city Baltimore. I’m going to keep it a secret for now, but she will let you know at what age she knew that she’d want to become an accountant. She has traveled the world representing the accounting profession and away from her family. Her success is equally attributed due to the support of her husband, Darius, and her two boys, Darius and Dominic. She is one remarkable woman who I admire and thankful that we’re both colleagues and friends.

Peter Margaritis: [00:02:54] Before we get to the interview, I want to share with you that Change Your Mindset is now being distributed on C Suite Radio. You can f Change Your mindset, as well as many other outstanding business podcasts on C Suite Radio by going to www.c-suiteradio.com, all one word.

Announcer: [00:03:12] This podcast is part of the C Suite Radio Network, turning the volume up business.

Peter Margaritis: [00:03:19] And, now, a quick word from our sponsor.

Announcer: [00:03:22] This episode is sponsored by Peter A Margaritas LLC, a.k.a. The Accidental Accountant. Are you looking for a high content and engaging speaker for your next conference? Do you want to deliver a story to stakeholders that will transform data dumping to engaging business conversations? Do you want to feel that the value a speaker provides your audience far exceeds the dollar value on their invoice? Then, book Peter for your next conference, management retreat, or workshop. Contact Peter at peter@petermargaritis.com and visit his website at www.petermargaritis.com. By the way, one of his Fortune 50 clients, actually, made the comment about the value he brings to your audience.

Peter Margaritis: [00:04:09] Now, let’s get to the interview with Kimberly Ellison-Taylor.

Peter Margaritis: [00:04:18] Hey, welcome back, everybody. I’ve interviewed a lot of rock stars in the accounting profession, but in my music world, Bruce Springsteen is the biggest rock star. I’m about to interview in the accounting space, my Bruce Springsteen, Kimberly Ellison-Taylor. Thank you so very much for taking time out of your hectic, busy, crazy schedule to spend some time with me.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:04:43] Well, I can’t thank you enough for that amazing introduction. It’s a shame we don’t hear the crowd screaming for me like they do for Bruce. But I’m still delighted to be the rock star on your podcast, at least, for right now.

Peter Margaritis: [00:05:01] Well, I have been in the audience a number of times when you have spoke, and they give you a thunderous applause at the beginning, and even a louder one at the end. So, you do hear those crowds.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:05:15] I appreciate my colleagues a lot. So, thank you.

Peter Margaritis: [00:05:19] So, Kimberly, if you could, in a nutshell, I’d know I’ve done a little bit of the introduction, but could you give people a sense of who you are and the accomplishments that you have achieved in your professional life and in your personal life too?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:05:34] Wow. So, bring it to a Reader’s Digest version. And that’s how I’m dating myself. So, I’d start out and would say I am a Gen-Xer, presumer. I was born in 1970. So, we’ll let all of our accountants do the math. And so, that means that, yes, I can see that you’re thinking about what that means. So, yes, I’ll be 49 in two months. That’s only two months. And so, in my years, I’ve had just the excitement of having people around me that give me inspiration, that motivate me, that say, “Kimberly, you can do it.” And that started with my parents who really believe that hard work, perseverance, education would pay off.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:06:19] And so, I’ve kind of taken those core values with me throughout my entire career, very fortunate to know that I wanted to be a CPA in the third grade. And I think that when you’re in third grade, and you say something that big, Everyone says, “Oh, sure, honey. Sure, honey.” I don’t know if they realized that I would stick to my knitting.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:06:40] And so, everything I did after that kind of was right focused on that objective. And I’ve even had people say were, “Well, Kimberly, how do you know?” And I know because when I went from – now, this was really dating myself, but I’ll say it – from the eighth grade, which was junior high school, to the ninth grade, which was the new junior high school, I picked a school on purpose that had a business curriculum. I wanted to be in a business curriculum in high school on purpose. My high school yearbook says that I wanted to be an accountant.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:07:16] So, I’ve been very serious about my goals and objectives. And I took accounting in high school, which I think is very, very important to create preference and awareness as early as we can for our profession or for other things and industries, kind of, could take center stage in our minds. I think, we have to talk about the options that are available. And then when I went to UMBC, go UMBC, I made-

Peter Margaritis: [00:07:40] Yay.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:07:41] Yay, yay, UMBC. I majored in Information Systems. And so, although I majored in Information Systems, Peter, I still wanted to be a CPA. And so, I got an MBA from Loyola. I said, “You know what, I need to do this.” I went to school at night. I was working full-time during the day at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. And I went to a community college for two years at night, two classes a week, which I know everyone who has ever taken a summer class or a three-hour accounting class will know how difficult that was, but that’s how focused and determined I was.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:08:17] And so, I’ve been able to walk the fine line between technology and accounting. I’ve been able to walk a fine line of leveraging my accounting and finance acumen in every role I’ve had. And so, working at NASA Goddard, working at Motorola, certainly working KPMG, being a CIO, and now having been at Oracle for almost 15 years, every step of the way, I’ve always recognized that there were technology implications and always understood that there were finance implications. People, process, technology, and the financial resources. And I’ve been able to leverage both of those on top of the foundation that my parents set for me when they said very early that don’t be afraid, and you need to pay your dues, and work hard to get ahead.

Peter Margaritis: [00:09:06] Wow. That’s an incredible story. There are some things in there that I have not heard from the past. And I think you grew up in a very tough part of Baltimore. You grew up in the inner city of Baltimore. And the insight and foresight that your parents had, and the determination, and the perseverance had also come out of growing up in that part of Baltimore.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:09:36] That is correct. I mean, I grew up in the inner city of Baltimore and my mom. And so, whenever I had the chance to speak, I always give shutouts to women who make really tough decisions in their career, choices that help anchor and be the anchor for their families. And my mom did that.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:09:53] I mean, she probably could have done anything, but she said, “Listen, I cannot work while I have three girls that I’m trying to raise in the inner city of Baltimore.” I have a sister that is four years older, a sister that is four years younger. So, I am slammed dab in the middle.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:10:10] And she was pretty fierce. She was serious about good character, being someone of good moral fiber, making sure that we would be women that could hold our heads up, take care of ourselves, be independent. And so, she was like, “I need to be there to do that.” So, we got out of school at 2:30. At 2:45, I can tell you, my mom threatened us so many days that if we weren’t home at 2:45, she would be in curlers, hair curlers at the school. And that fear of either set us on strap because we did not want to be embarrassed. So, embarrassment is a great motivator. Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:10:53] Yeah, there’s a lot of truth in that. Embarrassment is a great motivator.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:10:57] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:10:58] So, great business career, but you’re such a volunteer. You volunteer your time. You’ve held roles as the Chair of the Maryland Association of CPAs. You’ve held roles at the AICPA. You’ve held roles, executive roles, chair roles, leadership roles at the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. And you love state CPA societies, I do know that about you. You absolutely-

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:11:27] Yes, I do.

Peter Margaritis: [00:11:28] Where did that desire to volunteer to give back, what fuels that?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:11:35] And that’s a great question. And, actually, no one’s ever asked me that question. And I think, Peter, it’s because I recognize it. I think it comes from having such a strong faith background. So, I grew up God-fearing, for sure. Understanding that it’s about servant leadership. It’s about helping people who might just need a little hand up. It may also come from my walk growing up in inner city. So, different socioeconomic background as a black female. So, different race from the environment that I’m operating in for the most part, and different gender from some of the executive positions that I’ve been in.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:12:14] And so, I think, with each one of those, it made me realize that other people may just need a little bit of help. Other people may need role models. Other people may need a courage to say that they can do it when they hear your story that I haven’t shied away from a tough story, which there’s a — sometimes, we move toward the best stories, the success stories. What we don’t see is the iceberg – all of the determination, the sacrifice, the hard work, the disappointments that are underneath the water. We only see the success. So, it feels like a 48-year success overnight, but they don’t really realize all of the things that go into it.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:12:57] And so, for me, I think to whom much is given, much is required. And I think it’s also important to lift as we climb. And that’s what the NABA community says, and I believe that is true. And so, I have adopted an elementary school, and I try to go and give school supplies, or go and participate in the programs during the holiday time. I participate in a Susan G. Komen Walks. I participate in a St. Jude Bid Program with our military and for our military, laying wreaths on the grave. And, also, as key to this discussion, working with the profession.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:13:35] And I think it is important because the more of us that can give visibility to the options that are available, the more of us that will be attracted to the profession, that will stay in the profession, will be advanced and promoted to the highest levels of the profession. And I think that if not me, who? If not now when? And we all have individual accountability and responsibility to do our part and to pay forward.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:14:03] And so, it’s just a part of who I am. And in every instance, I think, that’s why I’ve grown. I believe in karma. I believe you certainly reap what you sow. And I have received way more than I have ever given. And each one of those instances, it put me in contact with people that I would have never met. They gave me exposure to things and experiences I would have never had.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:14:28] And so, I always recommend state society volunteerism because it’s on-the-ground training in a safe environment where you can learn more than you would learn in any other place. And so, I’m just a fan, as you said, and it’s true of, especially, the Maryland Society of CPAs.

Peter Margaritis: [00:14:46] Yes, very much so. And for those of you who are listening to this, you probably thinking the exact same thing that I am right now. And you want me to ask Kimberly this question. Do you sleep at all?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:15:02] I don’t sleep a lot. That’s true. That is good. And that’s a question that lit up your phone bank? Everyone wants to know. So, this is it, Peter. This is it. I only really need about — and no one’s ever asked me this either. So, you’re getting new information. 5.5 hours and I’m good. So, I probably — And you tell me what that calculation is. If I go to bed about 1:00-1:30 a.m., and because my kids, although they have alarm clocks, sometimes, I feel like I’m the alarm clock. So, I’ll get up at 6:30 to make sure that they are up, and they’re getting through.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:15:42] And the times when I said, “I’ll really not do it,” because I’m going to see if they’ll get up on their own, it doesn’t work. Although the clock is blaring, they set the snooze 10 times, and I’d have to call them in the morning from wherever I am. I call them every morning at about 6:30. And so, it just means that I don’t need that much sleep. But every four days or so, it catches up, and you have to sleep. And so, it just works. And I’m a night owl. So, for me, which is unfortunate, I’m at my peak energy level at like 10:00 at night.

Peter Margaritis: [00:16:16] Wow. Okay, look-

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:16:19] So, that is like, “What in the world am I going to do?”

Peter Margaritis: [00:16:21] At your peak at 10:00 at night. I’ve been interacting with you for a number of years, and I’m going, “Oh my god. What is it like at 10:00 at night?” Because I’ve seen through the day and you’re like the Energizer Bunny on steroids flying through everything.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:16:36] That is true. What I prefer — I know people who get up at 5:00 in the morning. And I could stay up till 5:00 in the morning, but there is no way I could get up at 5:00 in the morning just because. I get up that time because I’m usually going to the airport. I mean, that’s how I do my work, family-life integration. I’ll tend to go stay the night with the kids and my husband. And then, get up first thing in the morning some time. And so, just work. But that’s not what I prefer to do. My preferred best hours, Peter, would be something like 9:00 to 7:00 or something.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:13] Okay.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:17:14] Yes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:15] So, before we move further, we have to give a shout out to your husband and to your kids.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:17:21] Yes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:21] Your husband’s name is?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:17:22] Darius Taylor.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:24] And how long have you guys been married?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:17:27] We’ve been married, it’ll be 22 years on July 4th.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:31] Oh, wow. And-

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:17:34] Yeah. But I met him as a sophomore. So, we’ve known each other 29 years, but we have been married 22 years in July.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:44] Wow, congratulations. And your children?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:17:48] They are — So, it’s Dominic and Darius II. And they are 14 and 16.

Peter Margaritis: [00:17:54] So, your role as the chair of the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants, and your role of Chair of the Association for International Certified Professional Accountants took you around the world.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:18:10] It did.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:11] It took you away from home a lot.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:18:11] It did.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:11] And managing a family, and being away, and having those boys at that age makes you even much more of a special person because I have not met them, but you’ve talked a lot about them. And from what — and I don’t think you’re just being a proud mother, I just think you’d be a very honest, very good boys.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:18:35] Yes, I would never say that to them, but I’m going to pat them on the back, but they can’t hear it because they know that I’m kind of “Education is serious. Don’t take it for granted. Work hard. Pay your dues. Don’t feel entitled. Don’t think that you’re picking up that trophy if you were 10th place. If you’re not for a second or third, try harder next time.” So, I’m that mom.

Peter Margaritis: [00:18:58] And I love that because my son was on the dive team, and he’s now 18. So, this was when he was a lot younger. And they were giving out ribbons. And then, my wife told me to leave because he got a 10th place ribbon, and I kind of said some words a little bit too loud, louder than I should have.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:19:27] It sounds like my husband.

Peter Margaritis: [00:19:30] Yeah. And I’m going, “Why get? No, it’s first, second, third, and then try harder.”

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:19:36] Yes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:19:36] I had that same-

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:19:37] That is exactly what I think. And I say that to them to say I refuse to diminish the hard work and sacrifice of the people who were in the first place. And I think the trophy should be different. First place should get the big trophy. Second place should get a smaller one. Third place should get a smaller. Do silver, bronze, gold. Do something. But don’t make it seem as if everyone’s effort was the same because it’s not. And everyone else can get a certificate, but everyone else should not get trophies. I mean, there are different ways to motivate people. But I bought my son a shirt that said, “If winning wasn’t important, why did they keep score?”

Peter Margaritis: [00:20:14] That’s true. That’s true. Just ask your alma mater’s basketball team last year in the NCAA tournament.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:20:21] Yes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:20:21] The first team to ever beat a number one seed.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:20:30] And let me tell you, I was so proud and back there [inaudible]. He’s done such an amazing job here on BC. My husband and I both wonder if we could have gotten in there today. It’s amazing.

Peter Margaritis: [00:20:42] I feel the same way about my alma mater, University of Kentucky. I don’t think I’d be able to get in in today’s world as I watch my son who is getting ready to start his college career this upcoming fall, which makes me really feel old right now, but-.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:20:57] Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:20:59] Moving past that, so I was Chair of the Ohio Society of CPAs. And then, I was on council for three years, and on the Ohio Society board first. That was my first taste of the accounting profession is much more than debits, and credits, and spreadsheets, and calculators, and anything along those lines. It was such a broader view of what the accounting profession is all about. So, your years at the AICPA — well, before we do that, because I want to know what you were seeing at the time that you were chair of the AICPA, what was evolving in the years that that was happening?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:21:39] Oh, my gosh. It was such an amazing opportunity to see all of the segments of our profession. And you’re right, when you’re the chair of a state society, and when you get involved in the state society, your view expands because, then, you realize that, yes, it’s about public practice, but we also have members that have needs and requirements from their business community that are in business and industry, that are in consulting, that are in government, not-for-profit, and that are also in the academic and education environment. And so, then, you understand the importance of advocacy.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:22:17] And so, when you move to the national and international level, you get to see all of those on a bigger scale because all of those areas have more cynical, more requirements, the complexity grows, the scope grows, there’s more at stake, and you’re trying to balance every single thing. And it’s flying the plane, serving the coffee, and checking in all at the same time while remembering that we’re here to support and protect the public interest, that, yes, we all are trying to grow in our business communities to thrive, but what about Mr. and Mrs. Main Street investor? What about the people whose pensions or retirement funds are tied up into various environments? Are they safe? Are they reasonable? Is it a reasonable risk?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:23:08] And so, I think it becomes much more, I would say, daunting in a way, but it’s exciting and exhilarating because, then, you realize that you’re adding your lens, your view to a broader perspective across the profession.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:23:26] And so, things that were really top of mind for me were next generation leadership and technology. And then, of course, our integration with the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants. So, for me, those three things, among all of the other things, the peer review, looking at small firms and helping them, looking at tax reform, looking at things we’re doing any advisory space, all of those things are still important. They were important then. They’re obviously important. But for me, in particular, there was a laser focus on the three things I just mentioned.

Peter Margaritis: [00:24:00] So, before you go down that path, just so the audience has the understanding, can you tell us, describe to us the difference between the AICPA and the Association for International Professional Certified Accountants. I have to pause every time because I still can’t. I’m trying to get the words in-

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:24:18] I know. We have to get it out.

Peter Margaritis: [00:24:18] Yeah, trying to get the words in the right order.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:24:24] It’s a mouthful. So, I say that every organization has different points where you do a SWOT: strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. And, I think, if we look across our membership to reflect on what we could do to be more advocates of our members and helping them through their careers, and their personal career journeys, and providing the competency and learning that they needed, our assessments showed that members who were anything other than in public practice was, at least, 50%. And if not 50%, directionally, between 48% and 50% of our profession. And yet, we had not in-housed all of the resources that they would need that would give them the value proposition that they felt would have brought them back full time, active, renewing their CPA licenses, or things that they could use inside their function in business and industry, for instance.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:25:25] And so, as we look around, you couldn’t decide if people make these decisions all the time. Do you make or do you acquire these types of skills? For us, if there was a partner already doing it, already a leader, already well-respected, well-branded, and would not provide competition with our auditing colleagues, why wouldn’t we go forward with such an integration or a joint venture?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:25:55] And for us, that was the Institute of Chartered Management Accountants who are based in the UK. And they were in over 130 different countries already with their members, well-known in the management accounting space with resources, podcast, logs, and resources that were just already available, and great success stories of leaders in 350 companies who house what they learn in the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants as being key to how they progressed through their careers.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:26:27] It was just, kind of, of a great opportunity for us to bring to our membership and ask for their consideration. We had to show the value proposition, the why, the who, the when, the how much. All of those, our members are tasked because they’re accountant. So, they ask really tough questions about why this would be a benefit to them.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:26:46] And after we did all of the due diligence, working with the state societies who were especially key in communicating the value proposition to their respective members, the firms of all sizes, educational institutions, and certainly the not-for-profit space and education, but we went out and did this grassroots kind of making sure everyone would be bought into it, especially the business and industry community that had been sitting inside AICPA for quite some time, but maybe not feeling that they were getting all of the assistance that they could have gotten.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:27:21] And so, once we fortunately got a successful pass vote from our members, we then became the Association of Certified International Professional Accountants. And that meant that AICPA and CIMA, which is the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants, became the legacy founding bodies that stayed in place. We each have mission. We each have responsibilities to our members and core value. However, under the umbrella of the association, we became a stronger, more vibrant entity with a bigger voice that gave us more resources and the ability to service both of our membership more effectively than we could have individually.

Peter Margaritis: [00:28:08] I couldn’t put that any better. That was outstanding. Actually, I’ve asked folks over time to kind of explain it to me, and nobody has done the job quite like what you just described because, now, I — and, hopefully, the audience has a better understanding of those two organizations.

Peter Margaritis: [00:28:23] And you’re right, we haven’t, in the past, really treated the B&I and the other aspects with the same reverence that we did with the firms. I remember – so, this was way back – I went to pay for something on the Ohio Society website, and it clicked for a credit card, is it firm or personal? And I went, “What?” So, something as simple as that.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:28:51] Right.

Peter Margaritis: [00:28:51] Well, I’m not in a pharma. I’m in the company. But from the company’s perspective, also, actually, when I went to go to work for Victoria’s Secret Catalog – and I’ve told you, not as a model, but thank you for thinking about that – I asked about it. I said, “Would I be able to continue my license and get CP?” And they said, “Of course, we’d give you time. You have two weeks’ vacation, correct?” And I was in the finance role at the time. I was kind of shocked that they weren’t going to support my CPA. And in all honesty and transparency, I let it lapse.

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:30] And I know that there are, still today, some organizations that, internally, don’t support the people who have passed the exam and maintained their license to continue to maintain their license. There’s that misconception of value. And I think that’s a stigma or something to help that 50% to be larger.

Peter Margaritis: [00:29:56] So, we could tell the story a little bit differently in business, especially in today’s environment. We’re going to talk about the technology aspect, but in today’s environment, it’s even much more important that they maintain that skill set in order to help organizations continue to grow versus, “I don’t have to learn now. And if I don’t have to do my 40 hours, I’m not going to do my 40 hours. But I’m not going to also take initiative and do the L cube – lifelong learning.” Something stops there.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:30:23] It’s interesting because for many of our members, the — and back to your first point, and then I’ll go to the second point. So, firms don’t always see the value proposition. And we have to be so valuable to a member that, first off, when I had to pay on my own — I mean, so, when I became a CPA, I was at KPMG. KPMG was very committed to the profession. So, it was no-brainer. And KPMG pays. It’s a 1% firm, just like a lot of the firms in the top 100 and T400. A lot of firms are committed. And I should just say firms of all sizes are committed when they’re able to.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:31:07] And so, for me, it was like, “Ah, this is what you do. When you become a CPA, you pay to be in your state society. You pay to be in the national organization,” which is they are AICPA. We, hopefully, would have value that members would be willing to pay even if they had to pay for themselves. And that’s what we were faced with when we were trying to make the decision of, do you make it on your own or do you acquire the resources that you need?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:31:36] But you’re right, the B&I community did not feel that that value proposition was there. And I’ve had colleagues, certainly, at Oracle all who would say to me, “Kimberly, I left the profession.” Now, my colleagues are amazing. They’re developing. They’ve developed cloud software solutions for enterprise resource planning. They’re doing human capital management, development. They’re doing marketing. They’re doing sales. They’re doing account functions. So, they are accountants. They trained as accountants. And yet, because they only saw one focus area, they perceived that when they left that world, they left the profession.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:32:17] And so, the value and commitment for lifelong learning is something that we have to make sure that all employers are well aware of, the benefits of why financial skills are important. We just did a report between Oracle and the association that talked about the adoption of emerging technologies. And we found that more and more companies, instead of being ahead and abreast of these technologies that are in the marketplace – like AI, blockchain, machine learning, big data, cybersecurity – that financial leaders are reporting that they feel even farther apart than they did a few years ago.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:32:55] Now, that’s not the time to get hesitant. It’s not the time to stand still and wait and see what’s going to happen or put our hand in the sand and hope that this, too, will pass. We have to put our foot on the pedal, be willing to be uncomfortable. And so, I’m hopeful that employers will get the value proposition message. And that even if that doesn’t happen, that first is when I went to the government, and they didn’t pay, I paid for myself.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:33:21] And then, when I came to Oracle, Oracle has paid my state and local Maryland Association of CPA due. They paid the NABA dues. They paid the AICPA dues. They supported me through all of my volunteerism and, certainly, supported me through being chairman of the board for both the association and AICPA because we also have a commitment for lifelong learning at work.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:33:46] Now, Oracle say it that way, but when you’re in an organization where adding value is a part of your core mission and what you do for mission-critical organizations, there is the expectation that you will continue to grow. There is an expectation that you’re not going to sit back on your laurels, that we’re going to be current. And so, that kind of dovetails nicely with my desire to make sure that I’m maintaining my competencies and commitment to lifelong learning.

Peter Margaritis: [00:34:13] Exactly. And I think in today’s day and age more than ever, that — I guess, the aspect is that we have to earn these hours to maintain our licensure is that part of that motivation to keep us learning, but I don’t believe in 40 hours. I believe in just learning. And it could be 70, or 18 hours, whatever, and not having that knowledge that is critical for the future of this profession and future of the organization, letting it pass by.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:34:45] Correct.

Peter Margaritis: [00:34:46] It’s just — You mentioned AI, you mentioned blockchain, you mentioned all these technologies. I will tell you, the first time I heard blockchain, I thought it was an intestinal disorder.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:34:58] You’ve got a blockage.

Peter Margaritis: [00:35:00] Yeah, it’s like a blockage. And, apparently, I think there is some intestinal disorders when we start thinking about blockchain because how it works, and the complexities of it, and the three-dimensional aspect of it. But I think you mentioned something that as a profession, we’re kind of waiting and seeing if something happens. Like when FAS would come out with the standard or will adopt international financial reporting standards. I just got to wait till it happens. Technology, it’s not going to wait for us. We can predict. I’m not going to go out tomorrow as the anticipatory organization process. I’m not going to go out tomorrow and buy a dumber phone.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:35:42] Correct.

Peter Margaritis: [00:35:42] I’m going to continue to evolve with technology, and that doesn’t stop where the standards might. And I think it’s a change in mindset that we need to grasp that we have to get on the train, we have to get on board, we have to get up to speed as quickly as possible, or technology, we’re going to be so far behind. We’re going to be antiquated.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:36:06] That is absolutely true. And I say this pretty frequently, standstill isn’t an option. Our lives have evolved because there are things, just like you mentioned, in our personal lives that if we did not have the technology option, it would be unacceptable. So, for many of us, we like mobile check-in. For many of us, we like to do our own travel. Many of us, we were seeking to digital engagement, we can go to LinkedIn and talk to our colleagues and people we don’t even know. There is no going back.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:36:36] And most of the people who are maybe not as comfortable with technology would not even go back in their own personal lives. And so, what I say, especially across the membership, if you’re not asking questions about technology, you have risk in your environment because you’re not asking the question that could be the difference between a company that you’re auditing, or you don’t have before being here one year and not being here the next.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:37:05] And so, we don’t have a choice. We have to ask the questions about technology policies, technology compliance, procedures, cybersecurity, what’s next from a strategic competitive value proposition. And technology is fueling transformation and disruption. So, if they want their clients to be competitive in the marketplace, or if they need to report to the audit committee that with a fast movement of technology that the traffic are on, we need to send a warning sign, that’s not going to happen if we’re not considering, not only the community that we’re in, but the global community fueling the pace of change at an unprecedented, unparalleled pace. And, again, standing still is totally not an option.

Peter Margaritis: [00:37:53] It’s not. And speaking of technology, so, right now, we’re using Zoom. Prior to Zoom, it was Skype. But prior to that, we would physically have to be at a location to do this. And we have agreed that the next time our paths cross, we are going to do this at a physical location. But just from this aspect of technology and the ability to collaborate and communicate, I’m embracing it. And I’m excited to see what’s next down the road as we communicate and collaborate, and the tools that will be available for us.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:38:29] Well, I’m excited about it too because I’m thinking that the technologies that are available but are cost-prohibitive today, like holographic images. I’m expecting that we’ll be in a conference room, and a holographic image of everyone from China, to the UK, to somewhere in Brazil, to somewhere in Canada, it could be in Ohio and Kentucky, we’ll all be sitting around the digital virtual 3D images while someone is in the room talking. And that will be like the next evolution of being able to be there when you can’t be there.

Peter Margaritis: [00:39:07] But when you said the holographic images, 2014, I believe it was, National Speakers Association Annual Convention, one of the hall-of-fame speakers by name of Mike Rayburn was on stage playing his guitar next to a holographic image of Mike Rayburn playing the guitar.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:39:25] Wow.

Peter Margaritis: [00:39:27] It was that. And-

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:39:27] Wow.

Peter Margaritis: [00:39:27] The whole crowd, we were in such, but it might be a little bit closer than we think. And having that capability of being somewhere but-

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:39:43] I think it’s here.

Peter Margaritis: [00:39:43] … not having to be there.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:39:45] I think it’s here. I just think it’s cost-prohibitive. So, you’re right, it is here. I just think that the costs have to come down to a more reasonable level, so that when kids go off to college — Now, the kids probably won’t hear this, but instead of mom worrying, mom gets to say, “Come see me right now,” and then you just pop in the living room, and they’re like, “Oh great,” because it’s the same way that we’re using checkboxes and voice-activated assistance, we’ll be able to use those holographic images. And that technology is not that far from being available. And, certainly, it’s only mostly probably because of the cost to bring it on a wide scale and to be pervasive.

Peter Margaritis: [00:40:30] So, what skills do you see that CPAs need to be prepared for the future, to be prepared for this technological change? We talked about blockchain, we talked about artificial intelligence, we talk about robotic process automation, where we’re not having to do the crunching of the numbers, but we’re there to analyze the information and communicate it throughout the organization or to our clients or to whomever.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:41:01] Well, I mean, Peter, I think it’s about what you talk about. I think it’s taking the numb out of the number in your book. I think your book is insightful because it does talk about skills that we need to have. And you’ve also done sessions, in general, on storytelling, which is the work that people are using today. And I think that is the skill.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:41:22] The skill is the AI will be able to provide us back the transaction, and based on what we feed in, make a recommendation. The machine learning will say, “You’ve made the decision, the same decision 10 other times using these factors.” Because machine learning, what it learned, how you thought, what made you choose, what you show, but, that, the machine did that.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:41:49] We can’t take those numbers into our internal customers or to the public and say, “Here are the numbers.” We have to explain the full length. We have to tie it to the mission, purpose, and values. We have to bring and illustrate it to life, so that we are providing, I would say, astute recommendations that matter to their core interests, and they’re not what I would just want to report because if they just wanted a report, then they will have a checkbox or a robot.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:42:17] The difference is the human element, the gut check, the, “Hey, guys, let’s think about the environment that we’re sitting in.” Yes, you could close this plant, but what about the fact that 20,000 people would be out of work if you do. It’s the people who work here, the businesses that rely on you, the airport that would close because, now, you’re not here. There are so many non-balance sheet type of decision points that companies have to make. And there is qualitative. And maybe it’s things that maybe we haven’t considered before.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:42:52] But in today’s environment, I would say problem solving, critical thinking, creative thinking, good judgment, people, management, all of those are things that we’re going to have to factor in and recognizing that all decisions aren’t economic. And as tough as it is to say because as CPAs, we want to – or as accountants – solve them. We want to say the numbers are the numbers, that’s it. The numbers are the numbers. Well, as leaders, we know that there are so many other data elements and considerations that have to be taken into account.

Peter Margaritis: [00:43:26] So, there’s times that when I’m speaking at the conference, I’ll ask the audience, what business are you in? And I’ll hear, “Consulting.” “No.” “Auditing.” “No, that’s a byproduct.” “I do taxes. I have clients.” I say, “No, that’s a byproduct.” And I get them a little bit uncomfortable. Just before they look like they’re ready to get up and hit me or walk out, and I go, “What business you’re in, you’re in the people business, first and foremost, because without people you have no business.”.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:43:54] That’s correct.

Peter Margaritis: [00:43:57] You have no clients. You have no customers. So, the better we take care of our people, the better we look at them as an asset, and grow those folks because if they don’t like the environment, they’re going to leave. And it takes twice as much time to replace them. Some folks, if they don’t get on the trade, or they’re not good for the organization, that’s a bad hire, and we need to figure out how to hire better.

Peter Margaritis: [00:44:24] But once they’re in, and they’re productive, we have to keep them motivated. We have to — that emotional intelligence aspect within leadership has a trickle its way down because if somebody leaves — what did Tom Hood say once? Either Tom or Rebecca. Firms are out there looking for a 35-year-old tax manager. You know how long it takes to find a 35-year-old tax manager? 35 years and nine months.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:44:53] I love that. I love that, yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:44:57] So, I have to take the Southwest approach. Herb Kelleher built this wonderful airline, and he recognized, “People are my greatest asset.” And they never had layoffs at Southwest, just natural attrition, but realized, “I need to keep my people, and we can cut other costs, maintain profitability. But when profitability is down, the first thing we look at is our largest line item on that income statement, people, payroll, and we begin cutting.” And I think that’s a big detriment to organizations these days.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:45:34] That is true. And I have always thought it was about the people, because your input, your customers will never love the company until your employees do. And I read that somewhere, and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that is absolutely true.”

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:45:50] And so, I think people are your greatest asset because it takes so long, to your point, of teaching them how they should operate, what the functions are, and then letting them thrive. And I think I heard another leader say, why would we hire you the best and the brightest, and then tell you exactly what to do? No, we want to give you a parameter. We want to tell you the outcome. And then, we want you to go and make it better because you’re going to think about stuff that I didn’t think about.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:46:23] So, if I tell you how to do it, I am, then, really putting myself at a detriment, because, then, you’re already limiting your thinking. No, we want you. I’m going to tell you the outcome of where I want to go. And then, I want you to ask me why because you’re going to see the things I didn’t see. And until we’re comfortable without our checklist, and until we’re comfortable with a clean sheet of paper, we’re going to be behind. And our organizations that rely on us are going to be behind. We have to be able to see what’s not there. Look around corners. Anticipate the future.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:47:00] Maryland Association of CPA talks a lot about the Anticipatory Organization with Dan Burrus, and it couldn’t be more true because we know that change is happening. There’s no way to fully anticipate all of the changes. But you know it’s going to change. And so, you have an environment that is really agile, innovative, and flexible enough to change, to accept that there are new ways of doing things.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:47:27] And it’s not the three-year strategic plan that you put on your shelf. It’s an ongoing, in real time, crowdsource, where you think we should be kind of operating model that says that the best idea can come from the person sweeping the floor, to the person greeting people at the desk, to the CEO, and in sensing people to be not afraid to speak up, giving them the environment to make risky — What would be risky in other organizations, risky suggestions.

Peter Margaritis: [00:48:00] I’ve heard this quote, I don’t know who said it, but the collective knowledge outside of your office far exceeds the collective knowledge inside pf your office.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:48:13] I can see that.

Peter Margaritis: [00:48:14] And that goes to collaboration. And you were talking about next gen leadership. Now, I’m a baby boomer. I’m 10 years older than you are. So, the accountants can do the math real quick.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:48:24] I’m 48 guys, if you needed to refresh it.

Peter Margaritis: [00:48:31] Yeah. And I had to actually write it down on a medical form the other day. I said, “How did I get to be 58 all of a sudden. Where did that come?” But there are going to be some folks who’s listening to this who will be upset about it, but that old-style, baby-boomer leadership model, I’m telling you what to do, do it this way, this is not the environment anymore. Unless you’ve really worked back then, but it doesn’t work today. And the ability to collaborate with everybody in the office, to give them that room. I was in the banking business at one time. And my boss told me, “Pete, I’m going to give you some rope. You’re going to do one or two things with this rope. You’re either going to build a bridge or you’re going to hang yourself.”

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:49:13] Oh, wow.

Peter Margaritis: [00:49:14] One of the two things. And he was right. But the thing was when I made a mistake, when I hung myself, he didn’t beat me up over it. He would say, “What did you learn from this, so you don’t hang yourself again?” And I still have those rope burns. I still have that from those mistakes I made. But that’s what makes me better today than I was then. If we look at those mistakes as — well, someone said use the acronym of FAIL, first attempt in learning.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:49:48] Oh, I like it.

Peter Margaritis: [00:49:49] But the old baby boomer kind of leadership was we weren’t allowed to make mistakes. Mistakes were bad. Mistakes were not looked at. Now, if you make the same mistake over, and over, and over, and over again, okay, but not the first time. What did you learn? What are you going to do differently? How is it going to affect you? How is it going to affect the organization? And the more that we fail early on, the better we’ll be later in life. Bringing it back full circle to what you were talking about at the very beginning of this conversation.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:50:20] Absolutely. And so, with great power comes great responsibility. And I say that about technology because it means that the generation today has access to knowledge and information that we didn’t have. We had to learn through brute force, through repetition, through someone who was in the accounting department for 30 years who the leaders probably prayed every night that she wouldn’t wake up the next day and say, “I’m not coming in.” And probably that’s how we learned.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:50:53] And in today’s environment, I mean, in Maryland, you can get nanolearning, 10-minute increments of learning. And I know other states are thinking about it if they haven’t done it already. Using the [inaudible] online, you can go to a university. I mean, there are so many opportunities to learn and get new skills set. And technology can be overwhelming. And so, we have new challenges, but we also have new opportunities because of technology. And we have got to get up to speed.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:51:22] And so, it means that our young people know they have options because — and I say this, I was influenced by baby boomers who grew up in the Motown generation era, who were serious about, “Pay your dues. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Your time will come. We’ll let you know when it’s time. And then, you can move forward.”

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:51:43] In today’s environment, what I said to our leaders across the organization, you, almost, in your onboarding, need to say for any of you who aspire to be a CEO, your partner, to be a managing director, to be a manager, these are the skills that we’re looking for. You can’t say it’s five years because soon as you say 5, or 10, or 15 years, they’re thinking, “Well, suppose I learn it faster.”

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:52:09] So, if I learn faster, Peter, if I learn everything that you tell me I need to know, are you going to arbitrarily keep me in this place because I have not stayed in the role as long as you did in your career? That is not the work for today’s generation. So, that’s why I talk about multi generations working in the work environment. And it’s across the board. It’s around the country. The same thing that we see, some of the characteristics, across the millennials and Zs, we see no matter where we are. Everyone that are Xs, and boomers, and traditionalists are saying the same thing.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:52:46] And so, it just tells me that technology is probably the equalizer because how would a kid in the UK has similar characteristics as a kid in Singapore, as a kid who’s in Mexico, as a kid that’s sitting in Victoria, and somewhere across the United States and Canada, Maryland, California, Florida, how would they all have similar characteristics? The equalizer is their access to technology, which then changes how they think, what they expect, and what they are going to demand when they come to work inside our organizations.

Peter Margaritis: [00:53:26] Wow. That’s a steep learning curve for some out there to change their mindset to realize that. And for those who have, I mean, they’re ahead of the game. And one of my favorite firms, actually, is in Maryland. And they won the First to Do the Anticipatory Organization last year, last business season. And to begin the busy season, they made some changes. One change they made that there are no mandatory weekends. What? No mandatory weekends.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:54:00] What?

Peter Margaritis: [00:54:00] And then, they went ahead and said, “By the way, we’re going to charge of vacation policy to unlimited PTO.” Unlimited PTO.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:54:07] Yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:54:08] Wait a minute. That means you trust your people. Then, they went on to one additional thing is they did do market surveys. At the time, they had two locations in the Baltimore area, in the DC Baltimore area, and they had a group of employees drive them from Frederick. And driving into the DC area, which means traffic, and jam, and a lot of time in the car that they opened an office in Frederick for the people to work versus do it in-

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:54:45] Unbelievable. Unbelievable. I can’t believe it. That’s amazing.

Peter Margaritis: [00:54:49] They’re one of the case studies in my book, DeLeon & Stang.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:55:00] You know I love them. Yes.

Peter Margaritis: [00:55:03] They get it. And when I share that with audiences of CPAs, I get the head, the Scooby Doo kind of “Aru, what?” But they have low turnover. They get people working for them that it’s like the Richard Branson approach because Branson says, “I don’t worry about my customers. I worry about my people. If I put the right people in place, they will take care of my customers.”

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:55:31] Absolutely. And it goes back to your customers will never love you if your employees don’t. That’s true.

Peter Margaritis: [00:55:36] Exactly.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:55:37] And which is why I said technology and next generation leadership. But in next generation leadership, it really applies to all generations. But it was awesome.

Peter Margaritis: [00:55:48] So, as we said before, so we could probably talk for two or three hours.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:55:55] We do, we do, we do.

Peter Margaritis: [00:55:57] So, we’ll begin to wrap this up. The one question I’ve always want to ask you, and it goes back to your time as chair of the executive board of — Would you say the institute and the association? In all your travels, what was the one thing in your travels that — what was the most enjoyable part of this process? Do you have one story that you can share?

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:56:21] It is — well, I have a lot of stories because they’re all around people. But I think that it’s — now, I know this is going to be counter to what I just said about next generation leadership, but, I think, a couple of the stories that I’ve cherished have been around our more seasoned members. Members who have walked up to me and they said, “I’ve been a member for 50 years,” and they’ve got — at this point, they don’t pay dues anymore for their state society. They don’t pay dues for the association. I mean, why should they if you ask me today.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:56:58] And I was concerned that being a minority female would be so daunting to our members. I wasn’t sure what the reception would be, but our members — and I have to credit this maybe to us being CPAs, and they know that if you pass exam, you pass exam. And hey, welcome to the club. And so, it doesn’t matter if you’re blue. If you pass the exam, welcome to the club.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:57:25] And so, I wasn’t sure because our profession is working on being more inclusive, but it’s not now. It wasn’t then, but we’re getting better. And so, to have members who were 50 years in, and they would tell me, “Hey, I’m 74. I’m 75.” We got some members who are 80. And they walked up to me and they said, “You know what, young lady,” and I would smile because, “Hey, 46 is the young lady when you’re 35,” I’m thinking. And they said, “It’s about time. We’re glad to see here.”.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:58:01] And I’m telling you, if I didn’t hold myself together, I probably would have burst into fear because they would have come through the profession during a time where black people couldn’t even take the exam. They would have come through the profession where women were not even expected to go to college, let alone go on and be executives.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:58:24] And so, for them to have evolved, and changed, and stuck it through, and was willing to change their mindset that if they had it ever to do that, and to be in the here and now tells me we all can grow, we all can change, we all can evolve, and we all can accept, you know, what’s around the corner because the generations that have come before us gave us a great foundation, and we have a responsibility to make it better for the next generation.

Peter Margaritis: [00:58:58] Wow. What a way to end up this conversation. That was pretty powerful. And for those in the audience who don’t know, when Kimberly refers to NAB, it’ is the National Association of Black Accountants. And I’ve had the honor and privilege of speaking at that conference. I think, I’m going on my fifth or sixth year and is by far — and I’m sure this was, by far, my favorite conference to attend, to be a part of it, to speak at. There’s so much energy that it’s just such a great conference. And I’m looking for — I always block it out. As soon as I know the dates, and I call Maryland, okay, I block out these dates. Get me back in.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:59:38] It’s always a great time.

Peter Margaritis: [00:59:39] Yeah.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [00:59:39] It’s always a great conference, yeah.

Peter Margaritis: [00:59:39] It is. And once again, I can’t thank you enough for taking time. I’ve enjoyed our conversation. I look forward to when our paths cross again, hopefully sooner than later. I admire everything about you. You are, by far — maybe Tom Hood might be your biggest fan, but I’m 1A-

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [01:00:03] I love Tom Hood. I love him.

Peter Margaritis: [01:00:05] … or 1B, and you’ve had a dazzling career, and I can’t wait to see what’s next for you.

Kimberly Ellison-Taylor: [01:00:16] Thank you, Peter. Thank you to the audience for listening. I look forward to seeing you guys out at our conferences and, certainly, as our paths are crossed. Thank you.

Peter Margaritis: [01:00:29] Now, that you’ve listened to this episode, what are your next steps in preparing for the future? Is it changing your mindset and recognize that those soft skills are mandatory in order to become future-proof? Is it learning more about artificial intelligence or RPAs? Whatever it is, just do it, and work on your new skill every single day.

Peter Margaritis: [01:00:53] One of my favorite quotes comes from Simon Sinek where he said, “Just because you take a leadership class doesn’t make you a leader. You must work on those skills every single day. So, get to work.”

Peter Margaritis: [01:01:04] Thank you for listening. And if you’re enjoying this podcast, please subscribe and share this episode with a friend. Also, please visit www.c-suiteradio.com to listen to many of the outstanding podcasts they have in their network.

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